Discussion on Sunday Worship
Amú
The Celtic Church kept the 7th day Sabbath not Sunday, they kept the Passover not Easter, they kept the dietary laws in the Bible and followed the Law of God.
Bishop
Respectfully, it should be pointed out that though Saturday was recognized as the day of rest, worship and the observance of the Eucharist was ALWAYS on the first day of the week: Sunday. This was true in the Apostolic church of the NT and the Celtic church of the British Isles.
Amú,
Jerry Lynn Hayes with the exception of Pentecost give me scripture that they gathered on Sunday. From what I have read one of the main issues the Catholic Church had with the Celtic Church is that they would not bow to the Catholic traditions.
Bishop
That is true, but not the day of weekly worship. Of all the reading I have done on the Christians of the British Isles before Roman influence I have not read one word about a disagreement over Sunday worship. If you have and can furnish the documentation (not where some 7th day=er said so. LOL) I would be thankful.
Some of the things Rome had trouble with was: the Celtic priests' hair cuts, the time for Passover, and the monastic structure that allowed for more than one bishop per abbey, water baptism being in the name of Jesus, and there was a problem with the Celts' view of marriage. i am sure there were more items, but I have never read that one of them was Sunday worship.
Amú
Catholic Answers:
Bishop
Amú, The above list entitled “Catholic Answers” is very confusing in that several of the items mentioned had not yet been developed by Rome at the early date of confrontation with the Celts. And how the list strangely shifts from the pro-Catholic doctrines (1-5) to pro something else (#6) indicates a corrupted list. Therefore, on face value this list surely could not be taken as any authority at all without sources to back it up.
K. M:
The Eucharist was not always held on the first day of the week. Polycarp went to Rome in the mid-first century to protest this practice by the Anicetus with the full backing of all the churches of Asia. The same dispute occurred at the end of the second century between Polycrates (representing the East) and Victor (Rome).
Bishop
Kelly McDonald respectfully, I think you are mistaking the Eucharist with Easter, or Passover if you wish.
Amú:
Jerry Lynn Hayes can you give a scripture showing they met on the first day for the Eucharist?
K. M.:
There's no evidence the churches of the east (and west for that matter) at this early date celebrated eucharist every first day of the week. Please start with some primary sources in the discussion.
Amú:
Jerry Lynn Hayes can you give a scripture showing they met on the first day for the Eucharist?
Bishop
K. M. stated: “Please start with some primary sources in the discussion.”
Paul, Luke, and Ignatius are primary sources for Sunday worship and the Eucharist: 1st century and very early 2nd century.
Polycarp's contention with Rome was NOT over each Sunday Eucharist. It was over the observance of Passover.
K. M.:
Thanks for providing some of your sources for your point of view. It really helps when trying to understand another point of view.
Please quote the convincing, indisputable evidence from the New Testament that JESUS Christ ever intended that the weekly Eucharist be partaken of on the first day of the week (and how the apostles continued that intended practice.)
Amú:
K. M., I have asked twice for a scripture and he has yet to give one.
Amú:
He says Paul and Luke are primary sources for Sunday worship I have yet to find that in the scriptures either.
Bishop
Amú, K. M., in answer to your request for scripture for Sunday worship I would, of course, suggest Acts 20:7 where the disciples met on the First Day of the Week for the Breaking of Bread (Eucharist).
This includes both Paul and Luke, plus all the believers at Troas.
Also, see Ignatius' letter to the Magnesians 9:1 where he references the "Lord's Day" in opposition to the "Sabbath."
I would humbly remind you brothers that I do observe the Sabbath, but not to the exclusion of the First Day of the Week, Lord's Day observance of the holy Eucharist.
The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox have always observed both days. This is the practice of the Apostolic Orthodox Church International.
Amú:
Jerry Lynn Hayes I ... will post on your reference. But the day is not Sunday. Put it in context and look at what the Greek word for week is and from what it is derived.
Amú:
Jerry Lynn Hayes here is how Thayer defines the word "week" in the 1 scripture you pulled from a chapter. Here we see Luke was absolutely not saying they met on Sunday. If you look the word day has been added to the text and the word "first" means one. If you read above the scripture you say refers to Sunday you will see it was after unleavened bread when they made their trip. Luke expressly gives us that information. Why? So that we would know it was on a Sabbath after unleavened bread and before Pentecost.
Amú
Jerry Lynn Hayes here in the Greek we see the word "day" is not there. And the word used for "assemble" is where we get the word synagogue
Amú:
Jerry Lynn Hayes And if we look at the NT in Aramaic it is going to say they met "on the Sabbath day". I am respectfully awaiting the scripture that shows the NT church meeting on Sunday as you say they did. As I said yesterday with the exception of Pentecost which became a high Sabbath.
Bishop
Amú: what you are seeing as the first (1) Sabbath is proper Greek for the 1st day of the week.
The noun "day" does not have to appear in Grk. It is supplied by the context. The same is true with the Grk's rendering of the "Lord's Day." It is often written in Grk with merely “Lord’s”.
τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων
τῇ : the
μιᾷ: one
τῶν: of the
σαββάτων: seven day period
Thus: first day of the seven day week.
The New Testament also uses the phrase (τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων) tê mia ton sabbaton ("the first day of the week") both for the early morning (Mary Magdalene John 20:1) and evening (the disciples in John 20:19) of Resurrection Sunday, as well as for the breaking of bread at Troas (Acts 20:7) and the day for the collection at Corinth (1 Co 16:2).
Brother, I have spent the largest portion of my life in the study of the Greek. I do not blame you for not being knowledgeable of this information, but, I am sure we have discussed this before.
Amú:
Jerry Lynn Hayes, ok
Amú:
Jerry Lynn Hayes so you disagree with how Thayer defines the word?
Bishop
Amú, no, brother, I am disagreeing with how you are applying Thayer. The lexical definition of a word and how that word is used in the syntax of the Greek language may have different shades of meaning.
What you are seeing is a Koine Greek idiom where “sabbath” or “sabbaths” (σαββάτων Ac 20:7) is used for week. The cardinal numeral miai “one” is used here for the ordinal prōtē “first.” The definite article “τῇ” before the cardinal numeral “μιᾷ” makes this clear. Literially: “the one of the week.” See on Mark 16:9 below. (See A.T. Robertson Grammar, p 671.)
Truly, the fact that literally every accepted English version of this text renders “Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων” as “one the first day of the week” should lay heavy on your mind that all scholarship is in agreement on this understanding.
Below I have given four texts where σαββάτων or σαββάτου is used as an idiom for “week.”
John 20:19,
τῇ μιᾷ σαββάτων,
Lit. the one sabbath
trans: the first day of the week
Acts 20:7
Ἐν δὲ τῇ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων
En de tê miai tōn sabbatōn
And-on the one (first) of the week
Mark 16:9
Ἀναστὰς δὲ πρωῒ πρώτῃ σαββάτου
Anastas de prōi prōtē sabbatou
And-having arisen early on [the] first [day of the] week
1 Cor 16:2
κατὰ μίαν σαββάτου
kata mian sabbatou
every first [day] of a week
New King James
Now on the first day of the week, ...
New International Version
On the first day of the week, ...
New American Standard Bible
On the first day of the week, ...
Revised Standard Version
On the first day of the week, ...
New Living Translation
On the first day of the week, ...
Young’s Literal Translation
On the first day of the week, …
Word Studies in the New Testament, M.R. Vincent says, "The noun "Sabbath" is often used after numerals in the signification of a week."
Joseph Henry Thayer's Lexicon on the word "σαββάτων" referenced to Strong's #G4521 (Hendrickson Publishers, Sixth Printing, ISBN 1-56563-209-5, pages 565, 566): Second def. "seven days, a week." he gives John 20:1, 19; Acts 20:7; and 1 Corinthians 16:2 as examples. (Your information on Thayer was incomplete.)
It is because of this information that we maintain that Acts 20:7 demonstrates the church at Troas worshipped on Sunday, the 1st day of the week.
Bishop
Amú, concerning your statement: "And if we look at the NT in Aramaic it is going to say they met "on the Sabbath day": the following is Acts 20:7 given from the Aramaic/English Interlinear translated by Paul Younan
So, you seem to be mistaken on this point also.
I am prayerful that this information helps with your study of the eternal Word of God.
Apostolically Speaking
☩☩ Jerry L Hayes
Apologia is a polemical work of apologetics in the defense of Christian sacred days. Our focus is Sunday worship, Easter and Christmas. There has been little written in the line of a strong apologia for the observance to the traditional times. Bishop Hayes offers his work "Apologia, A Defense of Christian Sacred Days" to meet that need. This book establishes why Christians have observed Sunday as their primary day of worship right out of the gate. Also, within the pages of "Apologia" the reader will discover the true meaning of the terms 'Easter" and "Christmas". Both terms have come under sustained attack in recent years from an element that is antagonistic to traditional Christianity. Bishop Jerry L Hayes comes to the defense of historical Christianity in this work that is destined to become a classic. We know you will want to recommend "Apologia, A Defense of Christian Sacred Days" to all your friends and family.
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Read other discussions and essays by the Bishop on the subject of the traditional Christian holy days:
"The Sign of Jonah (Defending a Friday Crucification of Christ)"
http://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-sign-of-jonah.html
"Defending Easter"
http://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.com/2019/04/defending-easter.html
The Christians' Day of Worship (Sunday)
https://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-christians-day-of-worship.html
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Apostolically Speaking
☩☩ Jerry L Hayes
Order your personal copy today from the link provided here:https://www.amazon.com/Apologia-Defense-Christian-Sacred-Days/dp/1099666589/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Apologia%2C+Hayes&qid=1558905902&s=books&sr=1-1
THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT BY PURCHASING MY BOOKS FOR YOUR LIBRARY. -JLH
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Read other discussions and essays by the Bishop on the subject of the traditional Christian holy days:
"The Sign of Jonah (Defending a Friday Crucification of Christ)"
http://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.com/2019/04/the-sign-of-jonah.html
"Defending Easter"
http://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.com/2019/04/defending-easter.html
The Christians' Day of Worship (Sunday)
https://bishopjerrylhayes.blogspot.com/2019/05/the-christians-day-of-worship.html
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