Godhead Discussion With Bishop Hayes, Drew Ayers, Michael Burgos, William Vincent; also including Joey Felts, Paul Yaddow, and Bill Lee.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Sr:
Trinitarians asks petitions of, and offer praise to three separate and distinct persons. each with an individual center of intellect, will and emotion; and each being fully God separate and apart from the other two? Does any trinitarian out there want to deny this - or defend it?
2012 September 22 at 8:34pm

Drew Ayers: Don't have time for straw burning...:) September 22 at 9:46pm 

Joey Felts: @Drew, I take that to mean you will not deny, nor are you able to defend said statement
September 22 at 10:38

Drew Ayers:  Obviously if I think it contains a straw man argument, I'm denying it... September 22 at 10:39pm

Drew Ayers: ...separate persons?...separately God from one another?...I would never try to defend tri-theism....
September 22 at 10:44pm 

Joey Felts: So you deny the statement? The above is indeed the teaching of trinitarians September 22 at 10:53pm

Drew Ayers: Trinitarianism does not teach separate persons nor Gods.... September 22 at 10:57pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: LOL. Drew, you know that you are to the wall on this one. LOL September 23 at 12:22am 

Drew Ayers:  No sir, you are grossly misinformed.... September 23 at 12:23am

Jerry Hayes Sr:  Drew, you expect me to think you are sober when you say that the Trinity does not teach three separate and distict persons? Really?
September 23 at 12:25am 

Drew Ayers: Distinct is accurate but separate is your vocabulary not mine... September 23 at 12:26am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  If you will not defend this charge, will you deny it. Why is it not true. September 23 at 12:26am 

Drew Ayers: Even your Oneness buddy William Vincent concedes this.... September 23 at 12:27am 

Drew Ayers: It is not descriptive of the Biblical doctrine of the trinity... September 23 at 12:27am 

Drew Ayers: I will only defend what I affirm... September 23 at 12:28am 

Michael Burgos: "Personally distinct" is not synonymous with "ontologically separate" September 23 at 12:28am 

Drew Ayers: ...and of course Michael and I are in unison on the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity… September 23 at 12:29am

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  O.K. Lets break it down> Do you believe in three persons in the Godhead? You know, we have your statements saying you do. Have you converted?
September 23 at 12:29am 

Drew Ayers: God exists as three persons...yes...no I haven't backslid... September 23 at 12:30am

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Do your persons have separate centers of intellect, will, and emotion? September 23 at 12:31am 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, the only way in which the Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct is in the way they relate to each other and to creation.  September 23 at 12:32am

Drew Ayers: John 6:38 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me...............…    September 23 at 12:32am 

Michael Burgos: Centers of intellect, etc, is loaded language intended to introduce a bloated separation where there isn't one.    September 23 at 12:33am

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Michael, that is oneness. So, you are saying that they are not separate persons that have separate centers of intellect, will and emotion?
September 23 at 12:33am 

Michael Burgos: No it is not. I refer you to a similar statement in Grudem's Systematic theology, around p. 241 if I remember correctly.     September 23 at 12:34am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  What say you?     September 23 at 12:35am

Drew Ayers: Are you suggesting separate as Jerry has a brain and Michael has a brain and Drew has is own brain?        September 23 at 12:35am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Yes, absolutly. September 23 at 12:36am

Drew Ayers: I would have to say no...the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are not persons in the human sense of the word..nor are they separate as we three are...
September 23 at 12:37am · Like

Drew Ayers: Person is what makes someone 'who' they are... September 23 at 12:37am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: You do not have this, you do not have three person in any real sense; you have three manifestations of one person - God. Welcome to the Onness camp.
September 23 at 12:37am

Drew Ayers: A manifestation is not truly a relational essence in this sense of love etc. September 23 at 12:38am 

Drew Ayers: God truly is the Father, Son and H.S......God truly loves His Son who has eternal existence…      September 23 at 12:39am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: How are you using the word essence? September 23 at 12:39am 

Michael Burgos: Here is what Grudem stated exactly: "The only distinction between the members of the Trinity are in the ways they relate to each other and to the creation." Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, Zondervan, p. 250 September 23 at 12:40am

Paul Yaddow: Its very simple, there is One God and Father of all, and one Lord Jesus Christ, and that was a quote from the bible and not a socian website. September 23 at 12:40am

Michael Burgos: It would seem Jerry, that you don't quite understand Trinitarian theology. September 23 at 12:41am 

Drew Ayers: In the sense of 'actual' existence....a manifestation is nothing more than the actors mask...at least in the sense of the Oneness' usage...September 23 at 12:41am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: You want essences that have relationship. You must have separate intellect to desire relationship, separate will to engage in relationship, and separate emotion to share and respond to relationship.     September 23 at 12:41am 

Paul Yaddow: Is that better Michael?     September 23 at 12:41am

Drew Ayers: For instance, has God always been the Father?  September 23 at 12:41am 

Drew Ayers: ?               September 23 at 12:41am 

Drew Ayers:  Drop essence, it is a poor word choice on my part...September 23 at 12:42am 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, you deny a relational God? So your God was in solitude previous to creation? Sounds terrible.      September 23 at 12:42am 

Drew Ayers: There is only ONE essence, I use the term being...and this being is love September 23 at 12:43am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: With out separate intellect there can be no Persons in relationship. September 23 at 12:43am

Drew Ayers: He didn't think about one day loving his Son…? September 23 at 12:43am 

Drew Ayers: I love myself... September 23 at 12:44am 

Drew Ayers :)   September 23 at 12:44am 

Michael Burgos: Intellect refers to the capacity for conceptual knowledge, and not ontological separation Jerry.       September 23 at 12:44am

Drew Ayers: What do you mean by separate intellect? September 23 at 12:44am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Mickael, what does that mean? September 23 at 12:45am 

Drew Ayers: I'm certain the Father, Son and H.S. are self aware... September 23 at 12:45am

Michael Burgos: It's Michael, and it means that your barking up the wrong tree. September 23 at 12:46am

Drew Ayers: We are in the Monotheistic tree...you know the foundational truth to the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity…     September 23 at 12:47am 

Michael Burgos: Your trying to take a relational identity and make it an ontological distinction- which is a logical fallacy commonly known as a category error.
September 23 at 12:47am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Is the Father self aware? So He is. Thanks Drew. So you pary to and offer praise to three self aware persons and each of the three are God in His own right apart from the other two. Tritheism!      September 23 at 12:48am

Michael Burgos: You've begged the question Jerry- you've presupposed unitarianism as the only form of monotheism.   September 23 at 12:49am 

Drew Ayers: And you've resurrected a straw man which we deny. September 23 at 12:49am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Michael, I asked you to explain what you mean by: Intellect refers to the capacity for conceptual knowledge, and not ontological separation Jerry.
September 23 at 12:50am 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, try to grab hold of this: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God- but not the same person. September 23 at 12:50am 

Drew Ayers: God is not God without the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...we are not dividing God into thirds…     September 23 at 12:50am

Drew Ayers: Very simple concept... September 23 at 12:51am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Brother, you can not claim monothesim when you pray to and offer praise to three separate self aware persons, each one God by himself. September 23 at 12:51am 

Drew Ayers: The Son is 100% God, yet for you he is only a man... September 23 at 12:51

Michael Burgos: I clarified the statement already Jerry: "You are trying to take a relational identity and make it an ontological distinction- which is a logical fallacy commonly known as a category error."    September 23 at 12:52am 

Drew Ayers: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.   September 23 at 12:52am 

Michael Burgos: Your begging the question Jerry. Ever read anything on logic? September 23 at 12:53am 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, I've got a question for you. September 23 at 12:54am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Now my original question was; Does any trinitarian out there want to deny this - or defend it? Obviousely, you deny it; but then tomorrow you will be defending this very charge.    September 23 at 12:54am 

Michael Burgos:  Ready?    September 23 at 12:54am

Michael Burgos: Ready for a simple question Jerry?  September 23 at 12:55am 

Jerry Hayes Sr. I have asked the question tonight. Answer my qestion honestly and I will answer yours.    September 23 at 12:55am

Michael Burgos: I can't answer your question as it doesn't accurately reflect my position. September 23 at 12:55am 

Drew Ayers: I think Michael is wanting you to understand our position more accurately... September 23 at 12:55am

Drew Ayers: We simply deny the charge...but we are willing to share what we truly believe the scripture to say… September 23 at 12:56am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: O.K. Good. What ever your position is it it is not The classical trinity I then forgive the late night post,  September 23 at 12:57am

Michael Burgos: Your statement, "each being fully God separate apart from the other two" is not compatible with Trinitarian orthodoxy.  September 23 at 12:58am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Have to run. September 23 at 12:58am

Michael Burgos: Yea sure Jerry, your telling us our position on the Trinity isn't orthodox? Lol!
September 23 at 12:58am 

Drew Ayers: Well, be sure to come back now, ya hear? September 23 at 12:59am 

Michael Burgos: That question will be waiting for you Jerry. September 23 at 12:59am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Brothers, here is a statement from the Athanasian Creed which is the "orthodox" creedal statement on the trinity: "...we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God…"   September 23 at 11:19pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Michael you wrote: [Your statement, "each being fully God separate apart from the other two" is not compatible with Trinitarian orthodoxy".] The Athanaaian Creed proves you wrong. I have the orthodox right. You wrote that I did not understand the Trinity - Well, does the Athanasian Creed understand the Trinity? Both you and Drew have some mutated belief other than the orthodox view. Of course, most do. But I will help you...
September 23 at 11:20pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.: It is no wonder that you guys will not agree to a written debate on this topic: you are all mixed up and not in agreement with the faith you claim to hold.
September 23 at 11:14pm

Jerry Hayes Sr. I said I would help you so here is the true trinity. I would suggest you guys conform one way or the other.
1."Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic* Faith.
2.Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3.And the Catholic* Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity.
4.Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.
5.For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
6.But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal.
7.Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

8.The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate.

9.The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible.
10.The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral.
11. And yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal.
12. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. 14. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.
16. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.
18. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord.
19. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the Catholic* Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three
Lords.
21.The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.
22.The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.
23.The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24."So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts.
25.And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another.
26. But the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal.
27. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped.

28.He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity." (The Athanasian Creed.)

September 23 at 11:24pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Anyone who bothers to read the above Athanasian Creed can see that it is a masterpiece of double-speak. However, the key to understanding why the creed teaches three gods but declares One is found in the 20th clause which states: "For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic* Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords." We can teach three, believe three, but are forbidden to say three Gods. Dear reader, you must determine if this is doctrinal honesty or no. September 23 at 11:32pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Drew you wrote: "Trinitarianism does not teach separate persons..." Well, how does your understanding of Trinitarianism compare to The Athanasian Creed which states: "For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost."? If I were you I would not want to debate me either. September 23 at 11:38pm

Paul Yaddow: And what I also understand about the trinity through the mind of Athanasius is that trinity is incomprehensible,which Paul the apostle teaches that the deity some will come to understand, which means the claim Athanasius made for his creed differs from the gospel. 
September 24 at 6:28am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Yes Paul, of course. I need to point out that Athanasius did not write this creed. It was given his name.  September 24 at 8:07am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Drew and Michael; you know, the remarks above about debating me in a formal written debate are made in light hearted fun. Hope you guys do not take offense. However, the body of Christ would profit from a written debate on this issue and I do wish you would reconsider.
September 24 at 12:07pm

William Vincent: Drew I appreciate, and agree with, your rejection of the term separate persons, but I assure you that Trinitarians of an early generation used the term "separate and distinct persons." In fact E. G. Reynolds of the Church of God uses this exact phrase in his affirmation during the debate with M. Hicks. (I have posted an audio link here on the forum).
September 24 at 8:28am 

Drew Ayers: Jerry, I would recommend my friend Michael for anything written, he is more than able and I'm more than taxed on schedule… September 24 at 8:40am 

William Vincent: As I have researched the issue, I find that this particular issue may be the result of a heavily used study Bible among certain Pentecostals called Dake's Annotated Study Bible(1963) - these are some quotes from Dake:
"What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human being, angel, or any other being has his own body, soul, and spirit." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 1)
"Is God only one being made up of several persons or beings in the one being? If so, we can conclude that man is one person or being made up of many."
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 2)
"The Father is called God, the Son is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God. As individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word God is used either as a singular or a plural word, like sheep." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 2)
"Is it any wonder that the Godhead, the Trinity, and the unity of God are so mysterious when we force separate persons to become only one person, all because we do not want to recognize the true meaning of the word one as referring to unity, not to individuality in some scriptures? Men would be just as great a mystery if we forced the meaning of all men to refer to one person." (Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 281, column 3)
"Christ received all power in heaven and in earth (Matt. 28:18). Someone had to be greater than He was to give Him that power. Who was it (Jn. 14:28)?"
(Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, N.T. pg. 280, column 2)
Dake was actually a tri-theist, and his teachings are rejected by Trinitarians as well as Oneness. But this kind of terminology went a long way to convince Oneness folk that Trinitarians believed in three Gods. I personally heard rural Trinitarian Pentecostal preachers use this very kind of terminology. I also heard my Grandfather (a Trinitarian) preach against these concepts and be labeled "Jesus only" because of it.
Also this is an example of hyper Trinitarianism, which was actively debating hyper oneness ... what a mess LOL      September 24 at 8:48am 

Drew Ayers: Dake was a tri-theist....little known fact among inquiring minds... September 24 at 8:50am 

William Vincent: I agree Drew, unfortunately my Pentecostal forefathers both Oneness and Trinitarians thought anything noted in a study Bible had to be true lol
September 24 at 8:57am

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  William and Drew, First: Praise the Lord. I love you both in Christ. Having said that permit me: William you are very kind, however, it is being too light handed to lay the blame for the trinitarian termology of three separate and distinct persons on Dake when I have shown above that the Athanasian Creed establishes that for Trinitarianism. Dake was just tring to be an honest Athanasian. Truly, Brothers, we are not talking about a particular "generation" we are speaking of, at, least, 1500 years. Now, if Drew and Michael are saying that there is a retreat from that ground, then - Praise to God. But, I feel it is a mistake to praise them too much for their half stepping as though it is not really that important. Jesus did say: Unless you believe that I Am you will die in your sins.   September 24 at 12:05pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr:  Folks, in the 20+ public formal Godhead debates I have had over the years, the Trinitarian ALWAYS affirmed this proposition with the wording, sometimes, repositioned: "Be it resolved that the Scriptures teach that there are three separate and distinct co-equal and co-eternal persons in the Godhead; namely the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Now, I would ask both Drew and Michael if they would be willing to sign to affirm this proposition? If not, then who are they? Are they somewhere in the Valley between the two great mountain tops that are Oneness and Trinitarianism?    September 24 at 1:08pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Michael, when you say that God is ontologically one, are you using the term ontologial as species or being?
September 24 at 12:47pm · Like
Jerry Hayes Sr. Drew, Michael, when yo use the word Persons, Are you using it as a persona or being?       September 24 at 12:48pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  William, I very much enjoyed your post  in this thread on Dake. Thanks.
September 24 at 1:05pm 

Drew Ayers:  Jerry Hayes Sr. I would defend the following resolution, "The Bible teaches the Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity"....Of course as the affirmative I would define my terms and you would as the Negative, deny.....I'm sure that if you could attain a debate partner, that Michael Burgos and I could meet you in the southeast anywhere from the Atlanta area to the Virginia area?      September 24 at 4:00pm 

William Vincent:  Jerry and I ... the original good cop, bad cop of Oneness Apologetics LOL
September 24 at 4:13pm 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, person refers to that which makes someone who they are. Whereas being refers to what makes something what it is.  September 24 at 7:46pm 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, in theology and philosophy, ontology refers to the essential nature of something.     September 24 at 7:47pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Didn't answer my question. Would, say, humanity be the ontology of humans?     September 24 at 9:33pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: You see the dictionary defines ontology as theory, so you need to explain the way you are theoretically using it.     September 24 at 9:35pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.: If the "nature" of humans is humanity, then would not the "nature" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be deity? So, then, there is One God nature manifested in three God Persons. Do I have it right?       September 24 at 9:43pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: I am doing my best to get inside your thinking so as to unhderstand. How am I doing?      September 24 at 9:44pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Drew, a debate is only as good as the proposition. The proposition needs to state exactly what you intend to prove. Just to say you are proving the Trinity is too ambiguous. For instance, I could say that I am proving the Trinity and be meaning something entirely different from you. You would need a very discriptive proposition. However, I would not be interested in an oral debate because of the expenses and all. I just could not afford it. Then too, I am concernd with the number of people reached. A written debate would continue reaching thousands in the future. I have PM'ed Michael on this matter.
September 25 at 9:48am 

Michael Burgos: Yes, human-ness would be an accurate description of human ontology. However, ontology is easily quantified to being. Thus when we speak of being, we speak of a central (perhaps the most central) aspect of the ontology of a thing. For example, the human being (i.e., the flesh) is a central part of human ontology. An important distinction in Trinitarian theology is the distinction between person and being. Jerry, judging by your previous comments, I think that you should invest into a decent Evangelical Trinitarian systematic theology (e.g., the aforementioned Wayne Grudem, Hodge, Horton, etc), or a dogmatics text on theology proper. Or more pertinently, my book will be available in about a month's time. I think these will provide you with a sufficient basis to grasp Trinitarian orthodoxy.        September 25 at 5:56pm 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, the nature of God refers to that which makes God what God is. You could say deity, however nowadays that can be a slippery an ambiguous term for certain people.     September 25 at 5:57pm 

Paul Yaddow:  (Morphe) nature,,the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision external appearance.      September 25 at 6:46pm 

William Vincent: Yes Jerry the problem is that you have read your Bible too much, and not enough theology books. You should know that the rules of logic do not apply to Trinitarian theology. They can create any kind of logical fallacy that they want as long as they cover it with some sort of vague terminology.      September 25 at 7:19pm 

William Vincent: The question is whether or not the distinction between person and being is found anywhere in the scripture. Perhaps Michael could show us how such a distinction can be demonstrated in scripture.     September 25 at 7:20pm 

Michael Burgos: William, both Trinitarian and Oneness recognize the said distinction. If you didn't, you couldn't affirm the incarnation. Your pejorative nonsense is tiring.
September 25 at 7:27pm 

William Vincent: Or in other words: "I cannot demonstrate it to you in the Bible." Your dodging the issue is equally tiring.    September 25 at 7:29pm 

William Vincent:  I will agree with you in one point however. The incarnation is the very reason for any distinction between Father and Son. I am glad you can at least admit that.
September 25 at 7:40pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Michael, you truly understand little of the art of debate. My whole set of exchanges with you and Drew have been to probe your position. I know the orthodox view of the trinity. I have met the most advanced minds of this doctrine in debate since before you were born. Son, you have not lived long enough to aquire one tenth of the knowledge you think you have.      September 25 at 9:47pm

Drew Ayers: Yeah Michael Burgos Son, we are idiots and don't know anything. We gotta become real old to overcome stupidity…    September 25 at 9:49pm

Drew Ayers ...and who is to say that I wouldn't have bought Jerry's plane ticket and paid for his Hotel room for the debate?    September 25 at 9:54pm 

William Vincent: Are you offereing Drew? September 25 at 10:46pm 

William Vincent:  Jerry, but Michael has Greek grammar books and can insult people lol
I feel that the problem with the Trinitarian error persists here. They are consumed in their presumptions and blinded by their arrogance. Slaves to Rome.
September 25 at 10:51pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Michael/Drew, honestly guys, your poistion of the Godhead seems to be neo-trinitarianism when compared to the Athanasian Creed. I see that neither of you commented on my posts above that references the Creed. Why is that. Of course the Creed contradicts your position of persons, and each person being fully God distinct

from the other two; but, I would have thought you would have had S O M E comment. It is not too late.       September 25 at 10:51pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.: William, I was told once: The Trinity is a mystery; if you try to understand it you will lose your mind; but if you don't believe it you will lose your soul. I honestly believe that the Trinitarian world has been scaried by the first statement of the Athanasian Creed: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity".        September 25 at 11:01pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Tomorrow, guys; hope you come back. September 25 at 11:19pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Michael, you wrote: "An important distinction in Trinitarian theology is the distinction between person and being." Now, so I can understand: Is this distinction between person and being unique to the Trinity? I ask this because no one would consider there being a difference between, say, ..a human person or a human being.
September 25 at 11:29pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Machael, what is the earliest date you can find for this theory (distinction between person and being in the the Godhead)?   September 25 at 11:33pm

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Michael, you wrote: "Yes, human-ness would be an accurate description of human ontology." So, you and I, two human-beings would not be separate ontologically. Got it. This is the problem I see ......…         September 26 at 9:56am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: The problem I see with your neo-trinitarianism is this: Your one God is one God-nature (the WHAT) just as humanity is the nature of being human. Therefore, it could not be said that your God is the Almighty Being, in any real sense. You want to say that your one God is a being, but it just does not compute logically. It seems, logically, that you have ONE God-nature, or One God-quality. We keep falling deeper and deeper into the abyss......….     September 26 at 10:18am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Further into the abyss we go: Now, we know from Scripture that we may know God by understanding the truth of His creation, and by knowing man inparticular. Therefore, there is one ontology (species) of human-ness that is shared by a race of humans which number over six billion alive today; by extrapulating this to God (Ge 1:26-27; Ro 1:20) we have the one God-nature, or God-quality (the What), that is ontologically one, which is a species that is shared by a race of three god-persons. Now, Michael/Drew if you deny that your principle doctrinal points do not lead to this logical conclusion, then, we will walk up through this thread and point out your posts that dump us out at this point.
September 26 at 10:34am

Paul Yaddow: I feel I can mediate on this subject because I'm neither oneness nor trinitarian, but when the term God in three persons is used. some believe within the

trinity belief that God is used as the invisible God manifesting in three beings that someday will be visible in heaven and some believe that.   September 26 at 10:37am

Paul Yaddow: Instead of God in three persons but more God as three persons. September 26 at 10:38am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Yes, as Dake who taught three thrones with three spirit bodies on the three thrones.         September 26 at 10:39am 

Paul Yaddow: Both of which is still incomprehensible. September 26 at 10:40am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Paul, I really believe the argument I presented above is the Waterlou of their position. With what has been said by Michael and Drew, though they will never admit it, is that they have a god-race that is eternally limited to three persons, or gods.
September 26 at 10:42am 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, your assertions about the creed and about Trinitarianism are so poor that I really find it hard to believe that you have done any reading of Trinitarian scholarship. Thus, until you demonstrate somekind of basic understanding, your

opinions about Trinitarianism are about as authoritative as Obama is conservative. Time to hit the books Jerry, as you've spoken foolishly.           September 26 at 10:42am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Michael, the Creed is there to read. One with elementary school education can understand this statement: "...as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, ..." Michael do you deny that you denied this? Your view is clearly neo-trinitarianism. Unless you want to advocate that your view is the orthodox one as opposed to the Creed. Do you? September 26 at 10:50am

Paul Yaddow: Michael are you criticising or explaining the trinity so jerry could have understanding?     September 26 at 10:50am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.:  Paul, Michael is doing what he has always done - criticising. I have had to spend weeks now poking and proding him with questions to get any info from him. But, we'll see….        September 26 at 10:52am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Neo-trinitarianism: The One God is the God-Nature which is eternaly shared by three God-Persons. Therefore God is a species with a race of three gods. Much as humanity is a species with a race of 6,000,000,000 humans. There you have it folks.
September 26 at 10:55am 

Michael Burgos: Jerry, I affirm the creed, and have even written on that creed in a published scholarly article. The error that you are making is one that is common, basic, and obvious. Your presupposing a unitarian defintion of God upon the creed in order to make it contradict itself. Your assertions are proposterous, and in my opinion, based upon a great deal of ignorance. I'm sorry, but I refuse to spend my time with someone who refuses to correctly and accurately represent opposing views, and who displays utter confusion and yet espouses a wealth of knowledge.               September 26 at 10:57am 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Michael, come on now. We both know that you are whistling in the grave yard to keep your courage up. Your view has two categories within the Godhead. Where is this taught in Scripture or history?       September 26 at 11:38am

Jerry Hayes Sr.: Michael, are you denying that you wrote: "[Your statement, "each being fully God separate apart from the other two is not compatible with Trinitarian orthodoxy".] ? Or are you denying that the Creed states: ""...as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, ..." ? I have a question for you Michael, Were you ingnorant of this creedal statement and made an honest mistake?; Or, did you know what the Creed said and chose to pervert it anyway? Which is it? One might think the latter since you claim intimate knowledge of the Creed. Quicumque vult, Michael, Quicumque vult!        September 26 at 11:25am

Paul Yaddow: I think u dazed him with that upper cut, Jerry, but be ready for Michael's right hook.                September 26 at 12:35pm 

Bill Lee:  Yeah - he is gonna stick his tongue out at you and call you a name lol 
September 26 at 12:38pm 

Paul Yaddow: lol    September 26 at 12:45pm

William Vincent: LOL             September 26 at 12:46pm 

Paul Yaddow: Pretty soon they might say, my daddy can beat up your daddy. September 26 at 12:47pm

Paul Yaddow: Wow, I think Michael is not getting up from that upper cut, I think old man Jerry sent Michael back to pre school.  September 26 at 1:25pm

William Vincent:  I dont know I only have one Daddy, and Michael has three ;)

September 26 at 1:44pm 

William Vincent: Tommy we simply ask Trinitarians to face the illogical statements they sometimes make, and the obvious contradictions of the same. If what you believe agrees with scripture, I could care less what it is called :)  September 26 at 1:48pm 

Ron Haley: Drew Ayers, as much as I love you brother, your statement, "Trinitarianism does not teach separate persons nor Gods...."
You know this is not a true statement. Correct? Trintarianism teaches exactly 3 "separate" persons.          September 26 at 3:09pm

Paul Yaddow: Tommy in the Athianasis creed, it states the Trinity is incomprehensible, read it for yourself, so should we rely on creeds from Rome or should we rely and what the bible says about the father, son and holy spirit.       September 26 at 10:13pm 

Jerry Hayes Sr.: So, here is the conclusion of what has been posted on this thread so far: "Trinitarians asks petitions of, and offer praise to three separate and distinct persons. each with an individual center of intellect, will and emotion; and each being fully God separate and apart from the other two?" Peace to Your houses.            September 26 at 10:16pm 

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