Saturday, July 13, 2013

Jesus Is Father God

First Affirmative
By Bishop Jerry Hayes
Proposition to be affirmed:
“Be it resolved that the Scriptures teach Jesus to be Father God.”
¶1 Greetings in Jesus’ name; that name which is above every name in Heaven or in Earth. 
¶2 I wish to greet those readers that will follow this debate in real time and those who will read these words in the future; it is my prayer that in these pages you will discover Truth.
¶3  I engage here, not to win a victory over an opponent, but to enter into a form of Bible study that will bring freedom to the spirit.
¶4 I would say to our readers: any animosity that may be demonstrated within these pages is not toward a person, but the doctrine expounded by the person.
¶5 Permit me to open this debate with a definition of my proposition:
“Be it resolved that the Scriptures....” By Scriptures I mean, the entire Bible, consisting of both Old and New Testaments – all 66 books.
“Teach...” By “teach” I mean, to instruct by precept, example, or inference.
“Jesus.” By “Jesus” I mean, Jesus of Nazareth, Mary’s baby; who was born in Bethlehem, crucified by Pontus Pilate at the behest of the Jews, arose from the dead and ascended into Heaven and is coming again to judge the quick and the dead.
“To be...” By “to be” I mean, has real existence.
“Father God.” By “Father God” I mean, the Creator of the universal, the Giver and sustainer of all life; the source, the uncaused first cause of all things visible and invisible.
My Intentions
¶6 Having defined my proposition I will proceed to declare my intentions. My intention is to show Jesus to be God the Father by four infallible proofs:
  1. That God is but one being;
  2. That only the Father is God;
  3. That Jesus is God; thereby, showing Jesus to be the Father; 
  4. That this is accomplished in Jesus’ Dual Nature.

¶7  Intention #1. God is but one being
Knowing, as I do, that my opponent believes this as much as I, I will not labor on this point very long. I will, however, establish this truth beyond reasonable doubt.
I might offer here three passages that I will call: God in the First Person, God in the Second Person, and God in the Third Person.
¶8 God in the First Person: God is speaking in the first person singular and says of Himself that He is but one person. Deuteronomy 32:39, “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no God with me, I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.”
Here the spokesman is Yahweh,
 Who alone is the Most High.
 Who speaks of Himself as a single Being.
  1. “I” (Hebrew: aniy) first person singular personal pronoun. 
  2. “He” (Hebrew: huw) third person masculine singular personal pronoun. 
  3. “With me” (Hebrew immade) it is the preposition ‘immad’ suffixed with the first person singular personal pronoun. The personal pronouns in an abbreviated form are affixed to nouns, prepositions, etc, to express the genitive and objective cases. THEREFORE, THE OBJECT OF THE PREPOSITION IS A SINGLE PERSON. 
  4. “My hand” (Hebrew: meyade) it is the noun “yad” suffixed with the first person singular possessive pronoun. THE HAND WAS THE POSSESSION OF ONE PERSON. 
  5. All the verbs of this verse are the first person singular form. In Hebrew the verb must agree with its subject in number and gender. 
Thus, the Divine person, in this verse, spoke of Himself as a single person and stated that no other person of deity existed.

¶9 God in the Second Person: In Isaiah 37:16, “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.”
Here, the speaker is Hezekiah.
 Yahweh is being addressed as though He is one person, and the prophet speaks of Yahweh’s singleness.
  1. “Dwellest.” (Hebrew: yashad) masculine singular active participle “The dwelling one;” ONE PERSON IS IN VIEW. 
  2. “Thou art the God.” (Hebrew: attah huw ha-elohim) attah: second person masculine singular personal pronoun; huw: third person masculine singular pronoun (himself). “YOU ARE GOD HIMSELF” ONE PERSON. 
  3. “Thou alone.” (Hebrew: labadaha) from the root “bab” which means: separately, alone, solitary. Hezekiah was speaking to one person and said that one person was the solitary God separate from all others. 
  4. “Thou hast made.” (Hebrew: attah awseta) attah: second person masculine singular personal pronoun; awseta: perfect second person masculine singular form of “asah.” The Hebrew actually reads: “You (second person masculine singular) have made.” ONE PERSON DID THE MAKING. 
Hezekiah extols God as one person Who is God without anyone else sharing in the deity.

¶10 God in the Third Person:
1 Timothy 1:17, “Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God,
In this text God is spoken about to others. The speaker is the Apostle Paul, who speaks of God in terms of strict singleness.
  1. “God” (Greek: theo). Dative masculine singular form of the noun meaning a deity. The singular noun indicates ONE PERSON. 
  2. “Immortal.” (Greek: apharto). Dative masculine singular form of the adjective “aphthartos;” which means “incorruptible.” “immortal,” “undying,” etc.... 
  3. “Invisible.” (greek: aorato). Dative masculine singular form of the adjective “aoratos” which means: “literally unseen.
  4. “Only.” (Greek: mono). Dative masculine singular form of “monos;” which means: without accompaniment, alone, single existent, sole, only, lone, solitary. This adjective is singular because it modifies ONE PERSON. The adjective agrees with the noun it modifies in gender, number, and case. THE SINGULAR NUMBER OF THE ADJECTIVE AND OF THE NOUN IT MODIFIES EMPHASIZES THAT THIS GOD IS ONE PERSON.
  5. “King.” (Greek: Basilei). Dative masculine singular form of the noun “basileus;” singular number indicates ONE PERSON.
Paul speaks of God as though He was one person and the ONLY PERSON OF DEITY.
At this point I will consider my first intention fulfilled.

¶11 Intentinon #2. That only the Father is God.
Paul taught that New Testament Christianity rests on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone.
 With that in view we will look to accomplish my second intention with the testimony of the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Himself.
¶12 The witness of the Prophet:
Isaiah 63:16 “Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer;”
Malachi 2:10 “Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us?”
According to the prophets, Yahweh alone is our Father. And He alone is the One God.

¶13 The witness of the apostles:
1 Corinthians 8:6 “But unto us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him:”
Ephesians 4:6 “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
¶14 The witness of Jesus Himself:
John 17:1, 3 “These words spake Jesus, and lift up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father ... this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God,...”
We consider it clear enough, from the prophets and apostles, with Jesus Christ, that the Father is the only true God; said another way: there is no God but the Father. So, God, then, is One Being (Intention #1); that One Being is the Father (Intention #2).

¶15 Intention #3. That Jesus is God; thereby, showing Jesus to be the Father.
Here, we move to the crux of the debate; namely, showing Jesus to be God. In my first two “Intentions” it has been established by Holy Scripture that God is one being, Who is the Father. Now, if it is established by the same Holy Scripture that Jesus is God, it must follow that He is the Father. So, the question is asked: Does the Bible teach that Jesus of Nazareth is God? I submit to you that the answer is in the affirmative; and, what follows will be the proof.
Again, a biblical way to proceed is to establish our teaching on the sure foundation of the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone.

¶16 The witness of the prophets:
Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” 
The One who would come as the Messiah (the Christ) would be “the mighty God” and “The everlasting Father.”
Now, we know that there is but one God who is the Father (Intentions #’s 1 and 2); the Prophet Isaiah foretold that the Messiah would be Him.
Micah 5:2 “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
According to the prophet Micah, the Messiah (Who would be born in Bethlehem) would be God. For Who else would have existence from eternity past? There can be but one Eternal!
¶17 The witness of the apostles:
Paul writes: Romans 9:5 “Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (NIV).
Paul writes: Titus 2:13 “while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” (NIV)
John writes: 1 John 5:20 “We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (NIV)
Jude writes: Jude 25 “To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.”
Thomas declares: John 20:28 “...My Lord and my God.”
The prophets prophesied that the Messiah would be the One Father God of Israel, come as a baby, born in Bethlehem. The apostles of our Lord Jesus gave witness that they agreed: Jesus is, indeed, “God over all,” “our great God,” “the true God,” “the only wise God;” and Thomas could cry to Him and say, “My Lord and my God!”
¶18 The witness of Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone: Here we see what Jesus said about Himself.
Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
John 14:9 “Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?
John 10:30 “I and the Father are one."
Now, here, we read the testimony of Jesus concerning Himself. For the sake of space we will only list these three passages. But consider this: Jesus said that He was the Alpha and the Omega; meaning, He is all. Nothing before or after. If that was not enough He goes on to declare Himself the “Almighty.” The Greek word John uses for Jesus’ verbiage is “pantokrator”,
 the all-ruling, as absolute universal sovereign, Almighty, Omnipotent. The word is superlative – there can be only One. I have the English dictionary open before me as I write; beside the word Almighty is only one definition and that definition has but one word: “God.”
When Philip wanted to see the Father, Jesus lightly rebuked Philip for not knowing that He was the Father. Then Jesus announces to the Jews that He and the Father were one. They did not misunderstand Him, even if most do today. They, the Jews, took up stones to stone Jesus because He made Himself God. They got it!
The evidence is overwhelming: Jesus was self-conscious of being Father God.
¶19 The New Testament opens and closed with a declaration of the deity of Jesus:
From Matthew 1:23 He is called Emmanuel, “God with us.” 
From Revelation 22:6, 16, 20 Jesus is declared to be the “Lord God Almighty of the holy prophets.”
¶20 We have learned from this (my Intention #3) that Jesus is God. We learned from my Intentions #1 and #2 that the Father is the only God. Therefore, since Jesus is God, He must be the Father.

¶21 Intention #4. That this is accomplished in Jesus’ Dual Nature. To prove that Jesus is God the Father is to prove only half of the truth. It remains to be shown that Jesus is also Man.
¶22   In Matthew 2:13 we are told that Jesus had dependency upon parents. The fact that He had parents is a testimony to His humanity. Matthew records of His childhood: “..., saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, ... for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.”
¶23 The CHILD Jesus grew and increased in knowledge according to Luke 2:40, 52, “And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.” And also verse 52: “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” Surely, it would be redundant to make comment concerning the application of these passages to the humanity of Christ.
¶24 The temptation of Jesus is an attestation to His manhood. Matthew 4:1 records vividly the fact of the temptation. The writer of Hebrews, also, is witness to the fact of the Temptation of Christ: “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). This seems to be significant to show the sharp distinction between the two natures: how that one nature can be acted upon and react without affecting the other; I say this, because, in the light of the above Scriptures, which make it cloudlessly clear that Jesus was tempted, the Word of God declares that “...God cannot be tempted...” (James 1:13). Therefore, the nature of Jesus which was tempted was the man nature. That the God nature was not in any way acted upon by this temptation is shown from Scripture, i.e. “...God cannot be tempted ...”
¶25 Jesus knew the limitations of man. He knew hunger, thirst and weariness. Matthew 4:2 shows that He was tempted to turn stones into bread, because He was hungry. John records Jesus at the well of Jacob: “Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well:..., There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink” (John 4:6-7).
¶26 Jesus was a descendant of other men; Romans 1:3 tells us He was of the seed of David.
¶27 The humanity of Christ is seen in the certainty of the human soul and spirit which He possessed. The human soul of the Son of God is seen in Acts 2:31, “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” The human spirit of Christ is recorded in Luke 23:46, “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:....”
¶28 Jesus had a human will separate and apart from His divine will. In the Garden, on the Mount of Olives, we happen upon a scene where a very human ‘will’ is locked in mortal combat with the divine ‘will’.
 Here, the human will of Christ is not at all in unity with the divine will. This we should note: Jesus was God, therefore, He had a divine will; Jesus was Man, therefore, He had a human will. Here, in the Garden, the human will is at odds with the divine will. Two wills are in view here. Jesus said “...not my will, but thine...” Clearly it was the will of the one praying to live and not to die. The only interpretation that will keep the integrity of the Deity of Christ intact is that the will that was praying was that of the MAN Christ Jesus.
¶29 The human nature that we have been viewing is none other than the Son of God. Galatians 4:4 informs us that the humanity of Jesus is the Son of God, “But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.”
In Conclusion:
¶30 We have seen that the dual nature of Jesus consist of a Divine, and a Human nature; these qualities being separate and distinct one from the other; acting and being acted upon independently one from the other; neither one negating the other. We have seen the divine nature is that of Father God, and the human nature to be that of the Son of God. So, those who refer to Jesus as God (Father) are correct, and, those who refer to Jesus as the Son of God (man) are correct; but, those who say Jesus is God only, or the Son of God only, are in error.

Modalist Bishop of Rome, (198-217)

Thursday, July 4, 2013

Apostolic Kingdom Theology vs Futurism (A Debate in Eschatology)

Apostolic Kingdom Theology vs Futurism 
(A Debate in Eschatology)

Repersenting Apostolic Kingdom Theology: 
Bishop Jerry Hayes

Walk through the book of Revelation with me. (07-01-13) (7:45 AM)

1:9 "I, John, both your brother and companion in the ... kingdom ... of Jesus Christian (Ro 8:17; 2 Tim 2:12), ..." 

The Gospel of Jesus was the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23). He taught the mysteries of the Kingdom (Matthew 13:11). He proclaimed the Kingdom to be at hand (Matthew 4:17-10:7). The coming of the Kingdom was to permeate the disciples prayers (Matthew 6:10), of whom he chose twelve – the number of government. He, as King, appointed a prime minister in the person Peter, by giving him the keys of the kingdom (Matthew 16:19). His parables spoke of one who would go away to receive the Kingdom and would return (Lk 19:11). He told the high priest that he would, himself, see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28). The apostle Paul wrote to make the mystery plan by saying that God “has delivered us from the power of darkness, (kingdoms of the beast) and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:” (Colossians 1:13). Thus, John can, here, write of his companionship with the Saints in the Kingdom of the Messiah.

Peace to your houses,
☩ Jerry Hayes

Don N Norma Reed Jerry are you caught up in the NAR heresy also known as Kingdom Now? I saw your website and am concerned about the symbol that is used for the Trilateral Commission, the 3 6's. I have been watching this new emerging cult (kingdom now, army of Joel, latter rain,new order, New apostolic reformation , dominionists )and seeing its new age thinking creeping into the Church. I truly hope you are not caught up in Kingdom Now heresy. Kingdom Now folks don't believe in a rapture period they believe they will usher in Jesus after taking over the world in his name and that is unbiblical and absolute heresy. If you are caught up with this heresy I recommend all to stay far away from this damnable thinking. The title "bishop" you use on your name put up a red flag and that is why I checked out your facebook site and related sites from your site and sadly it sure looks like Kingdom Now.
Monday at 1:31pm

Bishop Jerry Hayes Don N Norma Reed, I am not familiar with Kingdom Now Theology, nor do I know anyone that is. I am teaching the Bible as the Lord gives me the understanding. I would be happy to respond to anything you might have a question on.
Peace to your house.
Monday at 2:05pm

Angie DeSeno O'Hara "take over the world in His name"??? Seriously? Someone is teaching that? The entire Bible speaks of a last days period of subjugation of the saints, not a "taking over" *by* the saints. Complete polar opposite of Scripture.... Wow.
Monday at 2:05pm

Bishop Jerry Hayes Folks, I am doing a walk-through of the book of Revelation. The OP in this thread is #32 in an ongoing series. You might want to read the other 31 to understand me here. Or you can read my book:

  1. Letters to my Children on Apostolic Kingdom Theology: An Apostolic Answer to Dispensationalism...
    After spending over forty years in the dispensational doctrine, and having raise my children in that theological framework, I became a convinced adherent to a "kingdom" theology that recognizes the Church as the Israel of God, and that the first century actually saw the fulfillment of most of Mat..
    Monday at 2:11pm
    · Like · Remove Preview

Bishop Jerry Hayes I call the teaching you find in my books and on my blog Apostolic Kingdom Theology.
Monday at 2:15pm

Bishop Jerry Hayes Don N Norma Reed, I am just curious, why do you find the title "bishop" unsettling?
Monday at 3:08pm
· Like

Angie DeSeno O'Hara Amish elders are known as "bishops". Just a random fact. lol
Don N Norma Reed Angie, Kingdom Now theology is taking over many churches, its leaders are William Branham, C. Peter Wagner, Mike Bickel, Bill Johnson, Lou Engle, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, Rick Warner, Paul Cain and Earl Paulk, just to name a few. These men call themselves prophets and apostles of the "New Order" Another name for this heresy is called dominion theology. These heretics don't believe in rapture as I mentioned above. Jerry the reason I have a problem with the title "bishop" is because Biblically a bishop is simply an overseer of a local assembly of believers. Religious Churches make a bishop a high ranking person and those who hold those positions were the title like a badge. I am a deacon in my fellowship but you won’t see me wearing it like a badge. All Gods ministers are just that, ministers (servants to God and his flock). In the NAR (new apostolic reformation) people wear these titles and are like the heretic Church of Rome that has a hierarchical system which God didn’t ordain. After looking at one of your websites I was highly disturbed at what I saw. I saw you believe in the God of many hats (oneness doctrine (sabellianism), I also saw the same type of system the apostate church of Rome uses. Here is that site that I am talking about… . This is absolute heresy. Jerry, be honest now, do you believe in a rapture whether pre- mid or post? My guess is no you don’t , I hope I am wrong.
I want to warn those who are not familiar with oneness pentacostalism, teachings of William Branham, the New Apostolic Reformation (the heresy that says the church is going to take over the world (like the catholics tried to do in the early centuries) and present it to Jesus at his return, and many other disturbing things I saw on Jerrys facebook site and links he has on that site.
  1. Don N Norma Reed For those who want more info on NAR here is a Facebook site that exposes this false teaching and you can ask questions etc. and get more info on this ever growing cult.  Its main founder is William Branham. Jerry you know who William Branham or should I say was don't you? 
  2. Here is another site exposing this cult
NAR -"The New Apostolic Reformation" EXPOSING, INFORMING, ID NAR MINISTRIES  EXPOSING (NAR) NEW APOSTOLIC REFORMATION founded by: C. Peter Wagner & subordinate ministries IHOP - "International House of Prayer", KCP "Kansas City Prophets" & other False Teachings and False Proph...

Bishop Jerry Hayes Brother Don N Norma Reed, I fear you may throw the baby out with the wash water - so to speak. You are concerned about many things. I am willing to talk to you on any point.
    1. No doubt you will brand me a heretic on my Modalism alone. No matter I am willing to share my beliefs with you or anyone, for that matter.
    2. Here is a good place to start: Are you a Pentecostal believer, have you received the holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in other tongues? 
    3. And, by the way, I believe in a "rapture" with all my heart.

    4. Bishop Jerry Hayes Don N Norma Reed, you believe the Church loses her fight with Satan, we believe the Church wins. But, this in no way precludes the rapture.
    5. Bishop Jerry Hayes To answer those who may wonder if the Disciples of the Way (Apostolic) teaches a rapture of the believers I offer the first few lines of chapter 24 of the book "Letters to My Children on Apostolic Kingdom Theology"
    6. Grace and peace, from our Lord Jesus Christ be to you all in all faith and love. I trust that each of you are enjoying the goodness of God as it is manifested into your lives. We know that this present world brings trials and test to our faith and at times the road seems long to our determined goal. However, we are assured that at last the Lord of Life shall call all to Himself. The Saints have, for some time, called this blessed advent “The Rapture.” However, the concept is more of a snatching away. When you are tired of the enemy oppressing you on every side, and the fires of hell seeming to be kindled beneath your very feet, there exist the hope that you shall be “snatched” from the danger as “a brand plucked out of the fire” (Zachariah 3:2). Our text (for this particular letter) ended by saying, “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
    7. We have now come to the twenty-fourth letter in our series on Kingdom Theology. In this writing we will explore the idea of the “rapture.” In doing so, we will attempt to address five points of this blessed event. The five particulars are:
    8. 1. The Biblical Fact of the Rapture;
    9. 2. The Biblical Types and Shadows of the Rapture;
    10. 3. The Biblical Examples of a Rapture;
    11. 4. The Nature of the Rapture;
    12. 5. The Time Of the Rapture.
    13. Other terms (that will be explained as we continue) employed in this writing for “the rapture” are: 
    14. a. The Catching Away/up; 
    15. b. The Snatching Away/up;
    16. c. The Translation; but most importantly:
    17. d. The Harpadzo (Greek).

    18. To learn more you are encouraged to get the book: :

Letters to my Children on Apostolic Kingdom Theology: An Apostolic Answer to Dispensationalism...
After spending over forty years in the dispensational doctrine, and having raise my children in that theological framework, I became a convinced adherent to a "kingdom" theology that recognizes the Church as the Israel of God, and that the first century actually saw the fulfillment of most of Mat...
Michael Olson Jerry, the saints will win spiritually either by martyrdom or rapture, if we're still alive when Jesus comes, but certainly not in this world. The scripture is clear that satan is already ruling and will rule supremely when he becomes the AC.(3 1/2 yrs.) The Lord will come and conquer satan and his power and establish His Kingdom on earth. If you have scriptures that say otherwise we'd like to see them.

Michael Olson No answer?....

Michael Olson I guess you don't want to spoil the book for us, huh?

Don N Norma Reed Jerry Answer the question, Do you believe in the rapture of the Church? You slithered in here like a snake as most people who are of the NAR. You come subtly with your heresy's as an angle of light just as 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I asked you if you heard of Kingdom Now and your reply was no, yet the heretic William Branham is the founder of such heresy which tells me you sir are a deceiver. I have spent countless hours which I found to be futile discussing the trinity vs. oneness heresy, NAR heresy etc. and I am not going to take the time here with you. Your web sites say enough about what you stand for. I warn all to stay clear of anyone who claims to be a prophet or an apostle bishop etc. of this "New Order" . As to whether I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues the answer is yes, however I don't believe in the pentacostal heresy which says if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved for that is absolutrely FALSE. I am a Christian who believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit which some call Charismatic. I however am not a charasmaniac. You know like what took place in Toronto, Pensacola, Lakeland (with Todd Bentley). The "laughing nonsense, people rolling and gyrating on the floor as if they are possessed, this stuff is demonic and is sadly in the church today and comes through snakes that claim to be the voice of God and claim all kind of nonsense and people who don't study the scriptures fall victim to this damnable foolishness.

Don N Norma Reed For those who want more info on those who are leaders of this cult and what this cult is about I created a facebook page warning and exposing this heresy. Here is the site.

Kingdom Now Heresy. (New Apostolic Reformation Heresy)

This page is dedicated to exposing the very popular heresy that is vastly influencing the evangelical Church, namely Kingdom Now.

Bishop Jerry Hayes don, you must not be reading my posts. Typical of people like you. You liken me to a snake. So I feel no need to respond to you any further. If I have written anything unbiblical name it.
Tuesday at 12:29am ·

Bishop Jerry Hayes Don, I wrote above: "Here is a good place to start: Are you a Pentecostal believer, have you received the holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in other tongues?

And, by the way, I believe in a "rapture" with all my heart."

Now, how about telling us who you are? I have been very, very open. ·
Bishop Jerry Hayes OK. I just read your above post Don. Missed it before. So you are a Pentecostal, of a sort. You may not be aquatinted with the Apostolics outside of the NAR as you call it. I know next nothing about that group. You seem to be on the attack and that is alright but you are barking up the wrong tree here. I just learned of the NAR two weeks ago and to my knowledge they are Trinitarian by-and-large. That would make them from your camp not ours. If I am wrong about that it just goes to show how little I know of them. As far as William Branham is concerned: Though he was Oneness, the Apostolic movement had very little to do with him. Me personally, I think he was used of God but his followers have taken his teachings out of bounds.

This is what I feel about you: If you would stop your saber rattling you might learn something. As it is your name calling only draws attention to me. Your warning of people to stay away only drives them to hear what I have to say.

Let me tell you a story: Of course you know we believe that WB must be performed in Jesus name; Well, at a Billy Graham crusade I lead my youth group on a tract mission.(This was in the 70's). The MC of the meeting announced that our printed material us forbidden. So we quickly made signs that read "Get your forbidden literature here. The result was we ran out and had to send to several other Apostolic churches to be resupplied.

The same will happen here. 
Peace to your house.
Don N Norma Reed You believe in "a" rapture" Tell us what you believe about "a " rapture Jerry? Pre, Mid or post. Jerry do you believe that the church must take over the worlds systems first and then Christ can return? What about the heretic William Branham, where do you stand on that man and his heresys? Do you believe anyone who doesn't speak in tongues isn't saved ?

Me, Jerry, I am just a guy who happened to almost fall for the NAR movement, thank God through his word I didn't fall for it. I now warn Christians of this damnable heresy. I was born again in January of 1981, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in my apartment a few months later and a number of months after that I was baptized in water. If I died before I was baptized in the Holy Spirit would I have gone to hell? I live my life now for the Lord Jesus Christ (who is not the Father by the way) with a heart to serve him according to his word, preaching and teaching his word. I also watch for heretics as Jesus said himself that many false prophets will arise deceiving MANY and MANY would come in his name saying they are Christ (anointed) and deceive many. While serving the Lord Jesus in anticipation of his coming I also am watching for those who we were warned to watch for..false teachers, false prophets and false apostles.

The apostle Paul put it best in Acts 20 when he wrote 28-31 to the elders (gr.presbuteros) of Ephesus:

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers(gr. episkopos = bishop, superintendent), to feed (gr. poimaino- to shepard, Pastor) the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 

Jerry whether you believe the Bible about the Godhead or hold to your heretic Sabellianism view, you are still propagating the same lie that Branham, Wagner, Joyner and the other heretics of NAR propagate. I pray that you repent and turn from your deception.

Also keep your $16.00 book called "Letters to my Children on Apostolic Kingdom Theology: An Apostolic Answer to Dispensationalism Concerning the Mission of the Lord's Church and End-Time Events". This is what the NAR folks do they merchandise their heresy. Just by the title alone I can tell it is false.
Don N Norma Reed I challenge anyone to view Jerrys page (link below) and see if it agrees with the word of God.

John Accomando I might as well ask: Is it Don or Norma who's posting? 

D&N, I know you're passionate, but please remember 1 Cor 13, and also about being wise as a serpent but gentle as a dove. I agree with perhaps all of what you're saying, but I cringe when the word "heresy" is used. I've had it used against me just for believing posttrib, and it just sounds more offensive when we accuse someone rather than pointing out why what they believe is erroneous. I know that takes some work, but perhaps that person my be edified by correction. Not that I'm the model. Christ is. 

Are you 100% positive that Jerry is NAR? And as for that link, I agree that it sounds strange to me, but again, please use some charity.
Bishop Jerry Hayes I am available to all questions. We all use the same bible and should be able to come to some common ground. Just so you know: the Disciples of the Way (Apostolic) is a specialized group within Christianity.
Bishop Jerry Hayes Don N Norma Reed, you wrote //What about the heretic William Branham, where do you stand on that man and his heresys? Do you believe anyone who doesn't speak in tongues isn't saved ?//

Please tell me what about William Branham you abject to and I can respond to it.

As to speaking in tongues: I believe tongues are given for a sign. But I do not believe it is a requisite to salvation.

As to WB: I understand Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; etc to teach the salvific quality of WB.

So, let us engage on these matters.
John Accomando Just to get conversation started, I think Peter was clear that the act of water baptism doesn't wash away sin:

1 Peter 3:21- "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

I think he actually answered it there. Is water baptism a part of the Gospel? No:

1 Corinthians 1:17- "For Christ sent me not to baptize, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

That being said, and as Peter attested to even in 1 Peter 3, what saves is the obedience. If our Master/Savior said to do it, then it is a matter of the utmost importance. But is nothing without belief and repentance.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Of course here is where we stand: Peter said, " baptism doth also now save us" That must really sting. Especially when Peter had earlier in his minisrty said: " be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;" and when Paul writes: "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins,..." (Ac 22:16), and understanding, as we do, they wrote and preached these thing because Jesus had taught them: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved;" (Mk 16:1). 

Bishop Jerry Hayes What do the disciples of the New Testament say about the importance of Water Baptism?

Answer: The disciples of the New Testament say the following concerning the importance of Water Baptism:

1. Matthew: “Teach all nations” (Barr, “make disciples of all nations”) “baptizing them...” (Matthew 28:19).
2. Mark: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mark 16:16).

3. Luke: “And he” (Peter) “commanded them to be baptized...” (Acts 10:48). Notice that Water Baptism was commanded by Apostle Peter; who possessed the keys to the kingdom of Heaven.

4. Peter: “Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,...” (Acts 2:38).

5. Paul: “... by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,...” (Colossians 2:11c and 12a). “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Galatians 3:27). “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death:” (Romans 6:5).

6. Ananias: “And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord;” (Acts 22:16).

Peace to your houses.

Don N Norma Reed John it is Don (me) doing the postings. I receive your reproof and understand your post. I cringe when I see those of the new apostolic reformation subtly bring in their "doctrine". I do need to be a little more compassion however and I stand corrected. 

After viewing Jerry's blog and his Facebook page and links associated with it which I found very disturbing, I asked him some point blank questions like #1 what does he believe about the Rapture and I asked him this knowing that NAR teaches that there is no rapture at all...he still hasn't given a direct answer to that question.

Also I asked if he believes if one doesn't speak in tongues if Jerry believes they are saved? Instead of answering a simple question he turned it around on me. I asked this because in one of his links it stated that if one isn't baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues that they are not saved.

As far as William Branham is concerned, this is a man who claimed he was Elijah the prophet and made many erroneous prophecies which didn't come to pass. He claimed many visitations from God who told him things that didn't come to pass. I can with a clear conscience say that Branham was a heretic. Branham was the founder of what was know as "Latter Rain" theology also known as "the manifest sons of God". Today it is called Kingdom Now also know as NAR, the army of Joel, dominion theology and "New Order". You will see these folks calling themselves Prophets and Apostles with new revelations. In dominion theology there is a hierarchy similar to the Roman Church, such as Bishops. There is a lot to this and it is very dangerous. Here is a link explaining a little clearer of what this "New Order" is about:
When I see Jerry and his "walk through the book of Revelation "that he posts on this site it seems that he is teaching the Kingdom Now thinking.

  1. The Latter Rain Revival

    watch.pair.comThis is my Web site.
    Tuesday at 12:14pm

John Accomando Thanks for the explanation, Don. 

Yes, that is typical Oneness-type teaching (that if one doesn't emerge from a baptismal speaking in tongues, that the person isn't saved).
Bishop Jerry Hayes Don, I am teaching millennialism, which is far different. Maybe that will help. I am not aware that Branham ever taught that he was Elijah - his followers say that of him. Just so you know, the Oneness Pentecostals, such as the UPCI, PAW, ALJC have never been followers of Branham. Branham held the Oneness of God and that is about the only likeness we have to him. To cast us with him is like taking every trinitarian and saying they are followers of Calvin. 
Bishop Jerry Hayes Brothers, I wrote in a post above: "As to speaking in tongues: I believe tongues are given for a sign. But I do not believe it is a requisite to salvation." Did you miss it?

Don N Norma Reed I must have missed that Jerry (about tongues not needed fpor salvation.) Jerry I am not very familiar with millennialism, do those who hold to that teaching believe in a tribulation period?
Bishop Jerry Hayes And Don, where did you find any quote of mine where I said that one must speak in tongues to be saved. I have not believed that for 30 years. Where did you find it. I challenge you to produce it. If you can not you should repent before the members of this forum. If you find it I will renounce it.
Bishop Jerry Hayes As to the tribulation: Yes. Different ones have different views concerning it. Generally speaking we have a tendency to view Mt 24 as being fulfilled in the first century. The Great Tribulation, Jacob's trouble etc having taken place in the first century.
Mike Pierson "“The Word of the Lord has promised that He would send to the earth once again the spirit of Elijah in the form of that End Time Messenger who was the Angel to the Seventh Church Age in these final closing days of our time. We believe firmly that this promise was fulfilled in... William Marrion Branham.” (The Revelation of the Seven Seals, Introduction, p. 19)

Mike Pierson William Branham is NOT Elijah nor did he come in the spirit of Elijah.

Don N Norma Reed That is preterism well full preterism because there are the "partial preterists" I find that thinking very erroneous and that is the thinking of NAR as well. I came to this Facebook page because it deals with the 3 views of the rapture. It seems clear that you don't believe in a rapture since you don't believe in a tribulation and probably don't believe in the AOD etc. You can correct me if I am wrong. As to where you stated that one cannot be saved unless they speak in tongues, I said it was a link I saw from your facebook page and am trying to find it but I did see it whether you hold that view or not I did not know but just questioned you if you did.

Mike Pierson I'd like to hear your answers to Don n Norma Jerry. Surely you don't mind telling us what you think, after all you're here to teach us right?
John Accomando Yes, that sounds like preterism. Do you place the resurrection in the 1st century as well?
Bishop Jerry Hayes Don, this is a day of education for you, my friend. The position I hold is not preterit. It has been called Historicist. I am comfortable with that view. Many forms of preterism denies a physical rapture, historicism does not. I might add, labels come and go but God's Word abides forever.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Apostolic Kingdom Theology sees a general physical resurrection of the dead, both righteous and unrighteous at the very end of human history - after the millennium.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Mike Pierson, you wrote: " I'd like to hear your answers to Don n Norma Jerry. Surely you don't mind telling us what you think, after all you're here to teach us right?"

Don N Norma Reed So what happens between now and the end of the millennium?
Tuesday at 1:06pm

Don N Norma Reed Do we as Christians have "dominion" over the world and its sytems? Its very hard to pin down those of NAR because they don't want to reveal what they really believe and that is why I am questioning you Jerry and I truly hope you are not of NAR although your end time view is not Biblically correct
Bishop Jerry Hayes Exactly what Jesus said would happen: 

Matthew 13:33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures[c] of meal till it was all leavened.”
Tuesday at 1:08pm

Bishop Jerry Hayes You have got to give me time to answer, my friend.

Don N Norma Reed
now that is what I call pulling 1 scripture out of its context to back up someones doctrine
Bishop Jerry Hayes Are my answers to you not biblical?
Don N Norma Reed So lets throw the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 away based on Matt 13:33
Bishop Jerry Hayes Show how it is out of context. I say you are wrong. Prove your statement.
Tuesday at 1:11pm

Bishop Jerry Hayes Don, your, our job as bible students is to harmonize the texts. Now, how have I used Mt 13:33 out of context?
Don N Norma Reed Oh its Bible but its not Biblical Jerry see that is where the enemy deceives. I have read Christian books that quote the Bible many times and the whole premise of the book is false. One might say it is Biblical but the truth is it isn't Bible truth. Read a Joel Osteen book to see what I am talking about
Tuesday at 1:13pm

Don N Norma Reed How about the "purpose driven life" by Rick Warren, many Bible texts but the whole of the book is erroneous
Bishop Jerry Hayes I agree with you to a point. But how have I misappropriated Mt 13:33?
Tuesday at 1:14pm

Bishop Jerry Hayes Here is the truth, Don, because Mt 13:33 stings your view you call wrong. Well, fare enough, how is it wrongl?
Don N Norma Reed I was caught up in a movement back in the 80's called Word of Faith, we had many Bible verses to back up our "truth" only later to find as I truly studied the scriptures that there were many half truths, out right errors etc.
Bishop Jerry Hayes I agree with you on "Word of Faith."
Don N Norma Reed In Matthew 24:29 Jesus says "after tribulation of those days... he will appear not after the millenium.
Tuesday at 1:17pm
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Don N Norma Reed Jerry prayerfully read and reread Matthew 24 along with Mark 13 and Luke 21, you might want to read Luke 17 as well
John Accomando I like this much better. Nice dialogue. Digging deeper.
Don N Norma Reed Then carefully study the book of Revelation in the light of the books of Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, Hosea, Zechariah to name a few. And then teach me what you know.I have to go now, but it was nice chatting with you. Have a good day
John Accomando I believe there are several problems with anyone suggesting that we are currently in the "millennium".
Bishop Jerry Hayes Now it is you that used Mt 24:29 out of context, and unlike you, I will show why I say that: The tribulation of which Jesus is speaking happened in His generation because Jesus said it would, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (v34).
John Accomando Jerry, He also said that He would come in the clouds immediately afterwards, and that the elect would be gathered from one end of the sky to the other by the angels. 

Are you suggesting that happened in the 1st century?
Bishop Jerry Hayes Sorry you have to run Don. Maybe, when you return you will be so kind as to show me how I misappropriated Mt 13:33; especialy since I was kind enough to show you how you used Mt24:29 out of context. Don, learn a truth: A text without its context is a pretext.
Don N Norma Reed and how about the sun being darkened and the moon not giving off her light and the stars falling from heaven, I must have missed that hmmm. Talk to you all later God Bless
Bishop Jerry Hayes John, and I can respect you saying that.
Bishop Jerry Hayes Look forward to it.

Bishop Jerry Hayes John: //Jerry, He also said that He would come in the clouds immediately afterwards, and that the elect would be gathered from one end of the sky to the other by the angels. Are you suggesting that happened in the 1st century?//

Actually, yes; I do maintain that very point. Here is why:

The Gk employs two different word for the "coming" of Christ. Erchomai and Parousia. The former is ONLY used in the present and imperfect tense; and references metaphorical and invisible comings - clouds are said to appear with this class of coming only. The parousia references the future physical coming of Christ inclusively.

There was an erchomai class coming in 70 AD when the Roman destroyed Jerusalem along with the temple.
John Accomando Jerry, one's a noun, and one's a verb. That's about the extent of their differences. A review of Scripture reveals that they are unambiguously describing the same event.

John Accomando By the way, Jerry, Paul said that after the Lord emerges out of Heaven, we meet Him in those figurative clouds, in the figurative air:

1 Thessalonians 4:17- "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Of course, I'm being facetious.

Bishop Jerry Hayes You will acknowledge that the "cloud" you are referencing are not of supernatural origin but are simply referencing the air, or sky. But, of course you recognize that.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Matthew 16:27-28. 
“For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Very I say to you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

The text introduces five items of interest:
1. The coming of the Son of Man.
2. Accompanied by angels.
3. A Time of judgment.
4. The imminence of the coming.
5. The coming is The Kingdom of the Son Of Man.
Bishop Jerry Hayes There are two Greek words used in the New Testament for the “coming” of Christ. Most of the time the two words intend two different types of comings. The two words are: erchomai and parousia.
  1. Erchomai: (Strong’s #NT 2064) is used only in the present or imperfect tense. Present tense involves a continual action. It is this word that is employed if an other than physical coming of Christ is intended.
  2. Parousia: (Strong’s #NT 3952); this word is employed when the physical advent (appearance) of Jesus is intended. However, the word is not limited to the physical coming; it can apply to any appearance of Christ. The main point of the word is: a particular time is in view.
  3. The word for coming, used in our text, is: erchomai. Here, the sense is: shall be coming. This coming alludes to His coming at Pentecost A.D. 30, and that, since that time Jesus has continually been coming in His Kingdom. This erchomai class coming includes, but not exclusively, Pentecost A.D. 30, the judgment on Jerusalem in A.D. 70, the deaths of the saints when Jesus comes for them (John 14:1-3), and the judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31 and following, compared to Daniel 7:9-28) which will culminate with the parousia, when the kingdoms of the beast are taken away, and the children of the kingdom of the Son of Man shine forth as the sun (see Matthew 13:41-43).

Point number two from above. The knowledge that the Lord God administers His affairs through the medium of angels is so well established in Holy Scripture we will not take the space to develop the position at this point, but will assume it.
There is, however, an eyewitness to the presence of angels at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. The Jewish historian Josephus recorded actually seeing an army of angelic host warring above the city of Jerusalem at the time of its siege.
“...a few days after that feast, on the twenty-first day of the month Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding cities.” (Flavius Josephus, “The Wars of the Jews” 6.6.3)

Bishop Jerry Hayes A TIME OF JUDGMENT.
Point number three from above.
The statement from verse 27: “and then he shall reward every man according to his works” does not have the Great White Throne Judgment (see Revelation 20:11-15) in view. The reason this can be stated with such certainty is the statement in verse 28: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste death to they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” What judgment does this text have in view, if not the judgment on the house of Israel that took place during the lifetime of some of those hearing Jesus speak. The “works” Christ is speaking of here is the acceptance or rejection of His person as the Messiah of Israel. It would be breaking the law of context to apply this “coming,” which is a coming of judgment, to any other event except Christ’s coming in judgment upon the Jewish people in A.D. 70. It is this “coming” in judgment of which Christ prophesied in Matthew 23: 2, 29-39, and also in chapter 24.
Tuesday at 2:45pm

Point number four from above. In our text Jesus states that there were some “standing” in His presence that would not “taste of death” (die) before He returned in His kingdom. The natural import of His words would be: Sometime in the future—not immediately, and yet not so distant as to be beyond the lifespan of all persons present. His coming in judgment on Jerusalem (Judaism), which resulted in the complete and total destruction of the Temple, forty years later, seems to fit this prophecy quite perfectly. 
Some feel that the vision on the Mount of Transfiguration fulfilled this particular prophecy of Jesus (see Matthew chapter 17). The Transfiguration took place a week after Christ made the prediction. It is hardly likely that this was Jesus’ intention, because of the window placed on the prophecy, namely—some (not all) of his hearers would not die before it happened. To consider the fulfillment of the prophecy to have taken place just one week after given would make the words of Jesus nonsensical and places Him in a very foolish light.
In the same context (of his return) Jesus tells the chief priests, the elders, and the whole council (Sanhedrin)—including the high Priest: “Hereafter shall you see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:64). Again, it is an “erchomai” class coming that is in view here. Obviously, Jesus does not have His physical return (spoken about in Acts 1:11 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) in mind, either in Matthew 16:27-28 or Matthew 26:64.
Matthew 16:27-28.For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Vearly I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Matthew 26:64.Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall you see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Christ has not yet, 2000 years later, come in any personal-physical sense (a parousia), but he has been coming (erchomai class coming) ever since Pentecost A.D. 30. The “coming” Jesus spoke to the Sanhedrin about was His coming in judgment on the Jews: in the destruction of their temple at the close of Jesus’ generation (see Matthew 24:3476).
John Accomando Jerry, you quoted Josephus, but you won't find a SINGLE extant Christian writing describing any such scene.
John Accomando Jerry, I think you've got bigger problems with Matthew 16 than I do. He was speaking to His apostles there, but has every man been rewarded according to their works?
Bishop Jerry Hayes At any rate I feel that I have explained WHY i hold the view I do. All are free to disagree - but you do understand me.
Bishop Jerry Hayes Brother John Accomando, The statement from verse 27: “and then he shall reward every man according to his works” does not have the Great White Throne Judgment (see Revelation 20:11-15) in view. The reason this can be stated with such certainty is the statement in verse 28: “There be some standing here, which shall not taste death to they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” What judgment does this text have in view, if not the judgment on the house of Israel that took place during the lifetime of some of those hearing Jesus speak. The “works” Christ is speaking of here is the acceptance or rejection of His person as the Messiah of Israel. It would be breaking the law of context to apply this “coming,” which is a coming of judgment, to any other event except Christ’s coming in judgment upon the Jewish people in A.D. 70. It is this “coming” in judgment of which Christ prophesied in Matthew 23: 2, 29-39, and also in chapter 24.
Shawn Grandstaff A thought from some previous comments. It was John Alexander Dowie who said he was Elijah and Branham got off when he started teaching cause he wasn't called to be a teacher and he taught false doctrines. That's just from my research. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance and there were many people healed under Branham's ministry just like there was with Dowie. Dowie influenced John G Lake and he had a major healing ministry to the point the city he lived in was declared the healthiest city in the country. That's a historical fact.
Don N Norma Reed Shawn you are right about Dowies claims to be Elijah but Branham did also make the claim that he was Elijah as well. As For Lake I believe he was a man of God by what history records of him. He did make some unbiblical statements but I would be guilty of that as well as anyone. We don't have it all so we do say things that are wrong and as we seek the Lord, God reveals more of himself through his word to us and in doing that he corrects our wrong doctrine.
Mike Pierson Shawn, what does this mean, "The gifts and callings of God are without repentance" ?
Tuesday at 6:58pm

Mike Pierson " he had a major healing ministry to the point the city he lived in was declared the healthiest city in the country. That's a historical fact." Please provide a link to this fact please. I know of no such proclamation. If you can't provide independent support for this "fact", then it carries no more weight than the claim of a mental patient that says the moon is made of cheese.

Mike Pierson Jerry, I assume you're claiming that Jesus established His Kingdom on earth in the past. When exactly was this done?

Mike Pierson Where does Matthew 16 say that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom?

Don N Norma Reed Jerry after reading some of the statements you have made since earlier today it seems you have made a subject like the Lords return so very complicated, which brings me back to 2 Corinthians 11:3 which says "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

The Lords second coming isn't as complicated as you have made it. Hebrews 9:27-28 says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation. 

How many comings of the Lord do you have??

What I am hearing in your statements is truly the preterist view.

Lets look at the Lords coming also known as the day of the Lord in both the OT and the NT (Isaiah 13:9-11,Joel 2:30-31 along with Acts 2:17-21, Joel 3:13-16, Zephaniah 1:14-18, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, 2Peter 3:10,Luke 17:24 with Matthew 24:21-51.

One thing that stands out to me and that is it comes after tribulation of those days and is preceded by the sun being darkened, the moon not giving off her light,the stars falling from heaven, and the powers of the heavens being shaken (sounds like Revelation 6:12-17 because that is what it is). Never in 70 AD did that take place why? Because it takes place after tribulation not after the Millennial. I can't at least at this point of my studies disannul the claims of the partial preterist but the full preterist has a lot of explaining to do. If you think we are in the millennium why isn't the lamb lying down with the lion? Why isn't Christ ruling with a rod of iron? Why are there still wars and rumors of wars and nations rising against nation and the love of many becoming cold? Why are Christians being persecuted around the world and Christians in the US losing their rights? I like 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 which says "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, YOU have no need that I write unto YOU. For YOURSELVES know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh UPON THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape. But YOU, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief. YOU are all the children of light, and the children of the day: WE are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let US not sleep, as do others; but let US watch and be sober. For THEY that sleep sleep in the night; and THEY that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let US, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. FOR GOD HAS NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 

Jerry is Gods wrath going to be poured out after the millennium or after tribulation of those days? I am curious to hear your response without all your greek mumbo jumbo...Keep it simple...remember 2 Corinthians 11:3
Mike Pierson Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" Jerry since you know greek, please explain why the greek pronoun translated "you" is in it's plural form when you say that Jesus was speaking to only Peter.
Don N Norma Reed Mike after doing a little more reading on John G Lakes healing rooms, I am see that there were some strange think he said and things happening to him that are taking place in the charasmaniac world. I have to wonder about some of the things I believed about these "great" men of God.
John Accomando Nice post, Don. I believe It is a daunting task, indeed, to reconcile a 1st century tribulation and millennial start with the OT descriptions of the DoTL.
Don N Norma Reed thanks John, all these thoughts were going through me when I was out. I wish I could put all the thoughts into words without having to type.
Shawn Grandstaff Spurgen dealt with serious depression no one has all the answers about the word but God still uses us. I will answer you and God always responds to faith not how correct our doctrines may be. If we walk in love and live by faith the father is well pleased. God can use in spite of us.
Mike Pierson "God always responds to faith" I'm sorry but I'm unfamiliar with this belief, can you please provide Scriptural reference please.
Tuesday at 8:17pm
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Mike Pierson " If we walk in love and live by faith the father is well pleased. " Also this, I have never read this, please give Scriptural reference.
Christopher Eric Bernard Peter said the great and notable day of the lord occurred on the day of pentecost...
Tuesday at 8:23pm

Christopher Eric Bernard Bishop Jerry Hayes, you're doing a fantastic job.
Mike Pierson Where did Peter say the day of the Lord occurred on Pentecost? I'm unfamiliar with that Scripture.
Christopher Eric Bernard 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All of this was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. Otherwise, Peter is a liar
Shawn Grandstaff Hebrews 11:6 and the new law is love so by walking in love and faith it pleases Him.
Mike Pierson Oh, Maybe someone should have told Paul that he was wrong! 2 Thessalonians 2:2 "that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." 
Silly Paul!
Christopher Eric Bernard So then, we have a contradiction.

Christopher Eric Bernard But, I don't believe the Bible is contradictory
John Accomando No, Christopher. You have created your own contradiction. You're imagining that in Matthew 24, the Lord was describing a tribulation which would last 10 days (from His ascension until Pentecost)?
Christopher Eric Bernard No, I believe Jacobs trouble was fulfilled as was discussed in this thread already
Mike Pierson I read Hebrews 11:6 and no where does it say " If we walk in love and live by faith the father is well pleased." What about sanctification? Can we please God without sanctification even if we have faith and love?
Mike Pierson 2 Thessalonians 5:2, "For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord WILL COME just like a thief in the night." Paul..stop it're killing me, LOL. You know that the day of the Lord occurred at Pentecost! LOL
Christopher Eric Bernard See, even though I have not completely committed myself to the theology of preterism (or, whatever the term is nowadays) is because I don't really want to give up tradition. But I just can't get past some of the obvious, and plain words spoken of by Jesus. Especially the "this generation" phrase. There's also the question that the disciples (whoever was in that group) asked Jesus: "Tell us what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of T H E age" never once did they speak of a separate, future age. They saw the age that they were living in as coming to an end since the Messiah came to earth.

Also, the Disciples asked Jesus that question AFTER He had spoken of the destruction of the temple. This is indicative of the fact that they felt the destruction of the temple was the ending of the current age
Mike Pierson 2 Peter 3:10, " But the day of the Lord WILL COME like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up." Et tu Peter?
Mike Pierson Psalm 71:18 And even when I am old and gray, O God, do not forsake me, Until I declare Your strength to this generation," So this verse is ONLY for the generation of the psalmist?
Mike Pierson Psalm 102:18 
This will be written for the generation to come, That a people yet to be created may praise the Lord.

Mike Pierson Psalm 24:6 
This is the generation of those who seek Him, Who seek Your face." I kinda wish our generation could seek Him,
Don N Norma Reed Peter said (when the people thought the Apostles were drunk) "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

When did the last days start? Yes on the day of Pentecost but the whole prophecy quoted from Joel has not been fulfilled yet and if you think it has then Cut out Revelation chapter 15-22 in your Bible, Cut out Matthew 24 as well as Luke 21 and Mark 13, Cut out the prophet Daniel Ezekiel Jeremiah, Amos, Zechariah etc. And then look at what you have left for a Bible. You see that is what false doctrine does Chris it either adds or takes away from the TRUTH...Gods word is truth
Shawn Grandstaff I will get back to you Mike my time for bed. God bless!
Christopher Eric Bernard so, you believe that "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord..." has been fulfilled, and that the outpouring of the Spirit has been fulfilled, but everything in the middle has somehow not been fulfilled?
Bishop Jerry Hayes On the Day of the Lord:

A key feature of the Joel prophecy is the word “afterward” in verse 28. According to this verse the Spirit of God would be poured out upon “all flesh” (Jew and Gentile alike) only “after” the events that precedes Joel 2:28. It is clear that Joel is speaking of the “day of the LORD.” This phrase (day of the LORD) occurs five times in Joel and is the dominant theme of the book. The term first appears in Joel 1:15, then 2:1, 11, 31; and 3:14. Joel’s use of this term indicates a time of God’s judgment upon Israel. Malachi uses the same term when he references the same judgment (see Malachi 4:5).

I apologize for the following posts, but they are necessary to establish a proper understanding on the Day of the Lord.
Mike Pierson So be clear, are you also saying that the day of the Lord happened on Pentecost?
Bishop Jerry Hayes A quick survey of the book of Joel shows the following leading up to our text:
a. The plague of insects may be understood as both literal and allegorical (see 1:1-20). In the allegorical sense one would think of the Babylonians as the palmerworm, the Medo- Persians as the locusts, the Greeks as the cankerworm, and the Romans as the caterpillar (1:4). Joel sees the destruction caused by this great swarm as leading up the “day of the LORD.” See 1:15.

  1. Then came the prophet’s warning concerning the “day of the LORD” (2:1-11). He sees a great army, that devours the land before it, which is well disciplined and armored. It is described as a time when the “sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining” (2:10). For a clear understanding of this prophetic allegory, one should see Isaiah 13:10,35 where the same language is used by Isaiah to describe the destruction of Babylon. This is common prophetic poetry employed to convey the idea of a turning of the age: the overturning of the powers that be, and the establishing of others. Joel revisits the thought in 2:31 and 3:15; each passage is speaking of the same event. This is a reference to the Roman-Jewish War that brought the destruction of Judaism: namely, the total razing of the Temple—the “day of the LORD”. (Be careful to see Malachi 4:536 as it compares to Matthew 11:13-14; and 17:12-13.)
    Tuesday at 10:23pm

    Bishop Jerry Hayes Joel calls the nation of Israel to repentance (2:12-17). Perhaps God will turn from His judgment and leave a blessings instead. Actually, the passage (2:14) states: “And leave a blessing behind him.” The thought is; The Lord; will indeed come on the “day of the LORD” but for those who repent, a blessing will be left behind when the “day of the LORD” is past. This is, indeed, the case; for 2:2837 speaks of the out pouring of the spirit during the Messianic period as taking place after the “day of the LORD.”
    Tuesday at 10:23pm

  2. Bishop Jerry Hayes The Prophet Joel tells of a great deliverance and restoration that is conditional upon repentance (see 2:18-27). Those who repented received the blessing and entered the Messianic Kingdom as Spirit filled believers (Acts 2:1-4), those who were unrepentant experienced the wrath of God in “the great and dreadful day of the LORD” (see Malachi 4:5 as compared with Matthew 23:34-38). The Apostle Paul speaks of these two separate groups of Jews in Romans chapter 11 where the Jews of faith are called “the election” as opposed to the Israel of unbelief.

Bishop Jerry Hayes A SERVEY OF JOEL 2:28-32
Where Joel uses the word “afterward” (2:28), Peter uses the term “last days” when quoting this very verse from Joel (see Acts 2:17). It is most likely that Peter is referencing the last days of the Jewish economy; the time period between the supreme unrepentant act of the crucifixion ( A.D. 30), to the supreme and final judgment on the “house” that rejected and killed its Master (see Matthew 23:37-3838 as compared with Luke 20:9-19).
The out pouring of the Spirit of God foretold by Joel is parallel to Jeremiah’s prophecy of: “after those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Godand they shall be my people.” (See Jeremiah 31:3339; and my letter number six.) It is clear to all concerned, that both Jeremiah and Joel have the Messianic Kingdom in view.
The reference to blood in verse 30 is a reference to war; while the fire and smoke of the same verse are signs of God’s presence (see Genesis 5:1740 and Exodus 19:1841). Together they speak of God employing war to bring about, and execute, “the day of the LORD.”

Bishop Jerry Hayes The “whosoever” clause of verse 32 speaks of the Messianic Blessing of Salvation, once particular to Jews only, now available to all men. This component is also present in both Amos’ and Malachi’s Kingdom prophecies (see Amos 9:1242 and Malachi 1:1243 respectively).

Also, verse 32 speaks of “Mount Zion and ... Jerusalem,” which has the church in view: see Hebrews 12:22. Here the disciple is said to come “unto Mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem,” when; in fact, the writer is speaking of the Church.
Tuesday at 10:27pm

Bishop Jerry Hayes Lastly, verse 22 states that this Messianic Kingdom will be established “in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” Paul refers to this in Romans 11:1-5, 7 where he writes that the “remnant according to the election of grace” (Romans 11:5), hath, indeed, obtained the Messianic Blessing; that “the rest” sought, but did not obtain because of their unbelief (Romans 11:20).
Mike Pierson So what happens at the end of the MK that I think you're saying we're in? We go to heaven? Are we already there? do we remain on earth?
Bishop Jerry Hayes Having set before you these few thoughts on the Kingdom Prophecy of Joel, perhaps it is clear, that, according to the apostle Peter (Acts 2:16), the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (AD 30), brought the Messianic Kingdom into existence. And, further, perhaps it is clear that after the destruction of the Jewish temple (namely, “The Day of the LORD”), the Kingdom of the Messiah has spread over the entire earth and embraces “ALL FLESH.”
Mike Pierson Jerry, I think we need to clear up what you believe in the OP before we can go on. Please address what I asked before. 

I assume you're claiming that Jesus established His Kingdom on earth in the past. When exactly was this done?

Where does Matthew 16 say that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom?

Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" Jerry since you know greek, please explain why the
greek pronoun translated "you" is in it's plural form when you say that Jesus was speaking to only Peter.
Don N Norma Reed the more I think of this it sounds more and more like Dowie and Branham
Tuesday at 11:35pm

Don N Norma Reed Thus we have "Kingdom NOW" just what I said from the onset. So Jerry you still haven't answered the question as to when in history did the stars fall from the heavens, the sun darkened and the moon not giving off her light? If the stars fall from the heavens and hit the earth there will be major catastrophes and history hasn't recorded anything of that magnitude. You have done a lot of research but out of fairness I will take the time and look it over. But it seems there are a number of wholes in your eschatology, and a lot of unanswered questions as I asked in my previous statement.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Mike Pierson, Don N Norma Reed, John Accomando, here is an example of how error is spread. Mike wrote:" Jerry since you know greek, please explain why the greek pronoun translated "you" is in it's plural form when you say that Jesus was speaking to only Peter."

Mike, you are right, I can make my way around in NT Gk; and you are wrong. Why you would make such a statement when it is so easily checked out is beyond me. Perhaps someone you trusted told you that. 

The Gk second person singular pronoun is soi (to you), which is the word in the text we are discussing; the GK second person plural pronoun is humin (to you all - KJV would have "to ye"), which does not appear in the text.

Here is the text: kai dōsō soi gas kleis tēs basileias tōn ouranōn.
Rosario Curiel That's what I read in a Jehova's Witnesses book of the Revelations... their own interpretarion of it says that Yahshua came back during last century, at about the time of WW2. They don't give many details about that, though... they just stated it.
Bishop Jerry Hayes Can any of you be honest? Like:
Mike, can you acknowledge you are wrong concerning the plural "You?"
Don, can you acknowledge that you were wrong in accusing me of quoting Mt 13:33 out of context?
Bishop Jerry Hayes Signs in the heavens.

Matthew 24:29.Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Perhaps, it is this particular prophecy that has been the greatest stumbling block to the Futurist in applying a literal interpretation to Jesus’ use of the word “generation,” in verse 34 of Matthew chapter 24. The argument asserts that since these astral events have not yet occurred, Jesus could not have meant His generation (the multitude alive in His day) with the “generation” clause of verse 34. Here, again, doctrinal error is infused into the Lord’s Church by well—meaning teachers (so-called) who lack in biblical scholarship.... one should be acutely aware of the importance of two particular laws of scriptural interpretation.

First, is the Law of Context. When Jesus mentions the sun being darkened, the moon not giving light, and the stars of heaven falling He spoke prophetically in the context of judgment. We, therefore, must view this passage in the context of other “like” passages from the Bible. 

Second, is the Law of First Mention. The law of first mention simply stated, is this: any biblical article should be identified with the meaning made clear when said article was first mentioned in Scripture. In that the entire Bible has but one author (namely, the Holy Spirit), what the Spirit intended by His use of the term, or phrase, at the beginning most likely carries throughout.

Bishop Jerry Hayes By applying these two “laws” (namely: Context, and First Mention) we are brought to Isaiah 13:10, “For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give light: The sun shall be darkened in his going forth, And the moon shall not cause her light to shine.” 
Here, the subject and the language are the same as in our text (Matthew 24:29). The subject is judgment. In Matthew 24:29; the judgment is pronounced upon Jerusalem while in Isaiah 13:10 the judgment is pronounced upon Babylon (see the complete chapter of Isaiah 13). In both cases the sun is said to be darkened, the moon will not shine and the stars shall fail. Matthew 24:29 says the stars fall, while Isaiah 13:10 says they shall not give their light—the intention in both passages is the same. What did the Holy Spirit mean by these cosmic references in Isaiah 13:10? When Babylon was judged did the sun, moon, and stars literally stop shining? Obviously not. This was prophetic symbolism in Isaiah 13:10 symbolizing a turning of an age with the overthrow of world powers and governments. ∼ Therefore, the same language as is used in Matthew 24:29, in the same context of judgment on an earthly power (namely, Judaism), must be understood in the same way as the parallel passage in Isaiah 13:10. Thus, the language is prophetic poetry set in symbolic representations to illustrate the overthrow of earthly powers which had come into judgment before Almighty God.

Don N Norma Reed Jerry the problem with your twist on Matthew 13:33 is that there are many verses after it such as " Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 

Quote the whole thing not just the part that backs up what you believe is treu
Bishop Jerry Hayes Don, this is a wonderful parable from the same chapter. I must get some sleep now but inn the AM I want to pick up right here. 
Peace to your house.
Don N Norma Reed Jerry its your law or mans law of interpretation. Hebrews 12:26-29 speaks of the Heavens being shaken, 2Peter 310-11 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. " This isn't a metaphor this is literal and Revelation backs it up. I see your error Jerry you tend to interpret these clear texts metaphorically.

Don N Norma Reed Ok Jerry God Bless and we'll talk to you later
Yesterday I introduced the parable of Leaven (Mt 13:33) to answer your question as to what was going to happen between now and the end. To which you introduced the parable of the Good Seed and the Tares (Mt 13:33ff). Then you alleged that I "twisted" Mt 13:33 because I did not quote other parts of the chapter.

First that is totally bogus, and here is what; Mt chapter 13 is the 'Kingdom Parable" chapter. In this chapter there are 7 Kingdom parables. Notice the number "7." Each parable is complete in and of itself. I quoted a complete parable - one verse long. Here I will give it broken down for you so it should be easy for you to pick at it.

Matthew 13:33.Another parable spake he unto them; “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”

While leaven is most often a type of corruption (see Matthew 16:6, 11-12; Mark 8:15; Luke 12:1; 1 Corinthians 5:6-8; Galatians 5:9), not so here! Notice that Jesus uses “leaven” as the symbol of the Kingdom of Heaven: He said, “the Kingdom of heaven IS LIKE unto leaven.” More exactly, the “leaven” of this kingdom parable is the Gospel of the Kingdom: as is the “seed” in the parable of the sower (verse 19), and the “net” in the parable of the dragnet (found in verses 47-50). 
(This is not the first use of leaven as a positive: see for example Leviticus 23:17 where the “wave loafs” were to be baked with leaven. Here the type is of the day of Pentecost recorded in the Acts of the Apostles 2:1-39; when the Holy Spirit was poured into believing Israel. Thus the leaven of Leviticus presaged Holy Spirit infilling. One should also look to Amos 4:5 where leaven is commanded to be offered in the thanksgiving offering; as it is also commanded to be offered with a peace offering: see Leviticus 7:13.)

The “woman” in this parable is a type of the Church and the “meal” represents the world. Thus, we see the three measures of meal as the three elements of society: namely, the elements represented in the areas of politics, religion, and education. Into these three sections of society the Gospel of the Kingdom is to be “hidden” (worked into) until the whole of society becomes leaven (the Kingdom of God). The imagery of this parable is very clear: as yeast works its way through the dough, so will the Gospel work its way through society until the whole of society (the world) becomes the kingdom of the Messiah. Thus, we see the gradual working of the Gospel of the Kingdom upon society (in all three spheres) until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ (see verse 43 and compare to Revelation 11:15).

An important note should be made at this point. The alternative to the interpretation that I have just presented should receive a hard look. If leaven is, here, a type of corruption, then Jesus is teaching the anti-effectiveness of His Kingship and the total failure of His Kingdom. Therefore, such an understanding of leaven, as the word is used in this text, must be rejected—out of hand.
Shawn Grandstaff I come in peace, and I love to discuss the word of God, like much of you do. I'm not saying anyone is here to argue I'm just saying I'm not. Besides, it's not our doctrines or whether we are right about everything or not that saves us. Jesus is the only one who saves us when we put our faith in what He did for us. Unless you're intentionally teaching false doctrines to destroy the body of Christ than that's another story. God knows your heart we don't. 

There is so much division in the body of Christ no wonder the world wants nothing to do with us. WE are to be the salt of the earth and salt makes you thirsty. Jesus said they would know us by our love for one another so maybe we should be a little more open minded with each other even if we don't believe just alike. Again, I'm not judging anyone here I'm simply saying I've been in the church world since I was 5 and have seen so much division and very little unity.

Anyways, here's a thought to back Jerry up a little. By the way, Jerry I've been studying the same things you're speaking of and the Jews would have understood the language spoken as symbolic and apocalyptic not literal. This is why audience relevance is so important and using the OT to interpret the New Testament. When we see something in the new that is mentioned in the old than that is where we must start when trying to understand what the meaning is. 

Here's a thought about the verse 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come." If the Thessalonians believed that the nature of the second coming was an earth burning, total destruction of planet earth, how could they be deceived about its arrival? If the Second coming was, as many view it today, Paul could have written them and said, "Look out the window, the earth is still here so the Lord has obviously not come." They thought it had already happened, so they must have viewed it differently than most folks today do.

Shawn Grandstaff As far as a new heaven and earth "Jesus says here that until heaven and earth disappear, not one bit of the law will disappear until it is all accomplished. Is that what it says?

Matthew 5:18 (DNT) For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass.

Matthew 5:18 (GWT) I can guarantee this truth: Until the earth and the heavens disappear, neither a period nor a comma will disappear from Moses' Teachings before everything has come true.

Matthew 5:18 (NCV) I tell you the truth, nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. Not even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will be lost until everything has happened.

"Could 'heaven and earth' that Jesus is referring to possibly be a different 'heaven and earth' than the physical creation of the world?" If it is not, then we are all under the Old Covenant law, every bit of it, until the physical creation ends.

Let's look at the use of "heaven and earth" in Scripture and see if they have some other meaning besides the literal physical heavens and earth. If you want to know what a term means in the New Testament, you need to go back to the Old Testament and see what it meant there. If it was used a certain way in the Old Testament, wouldn't it make sense that Jesus and the New Testament writer would use those expressions in the same way? We must get our understanding of "heaven and earth" from the Old Testament:

Deuteronomy 31:30 (NKJV) Then Moses spoke in the hearing of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song until they were ended: 32:1 "Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

Who is God talking to here? In the song of Moses, God is speaking to Israel. He calls them, "O heavens," and, "O earth." He is clearly not speaking to the physical heavens and earth, but to Israel. Notice what he says to them in:

Deuteronomy 32:22 (NKJV) For a fire is kindled by my anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

God is not talking here about burning up the physical earth. God is using apocalyptic and symbolic language to warn Israel of judgement that He will bring upon them. When Israel is finally destroyed, it is as though heaven and earth are burned up.

In biblical apocalyptic language, "heavens" refers to governments and rulers, and "earth" refers to the nation of people. This can be seen in the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 1:1-2 (NKJV) The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;

Isaiah 1:10 (NKJV) Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our God, You people of Gomorrah:

God is still talking to Israel, and He calls them "Sodom and Gomorrah." The literal Sodom and Gomorrah had been destroyed for some time. Here we see "rulers" used for "heavens" in verse 2, and "people" used for "earth." So the terms "heaven and earth" are used to speak of rulers and people of a nation. This idea is seen more clearly as we look at other passages where mention is made of the destruction of a state and government using language which seems to set forth "the end of the world" as the collapse of heaven and earth.

Isaiah 13:1 (NKJV) The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

In this chapter, God is talking about the judgement that is to fall upon Babylon. The word "burden" is the Hebrew word massa' an utterance, chiefly a doom. This introduction sets the stage for the subject matter in this chapter, and if we forget this, our interpretations of Isaiah 13 can go just about anywhere our imagination wants to go. This is not an oracle against the universe or world but against the nation of Babylon:

Isaiah 13:6 (NKJV) Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-13 (NKJV) Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Now remember, he is speaking about the destruction of Babylon, but it sounds like world wide destruction. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon. If you were a Babylonian and Babylon was destroyed, would it seem like the world was destroyed? Let me put it this way: If America were destroyed, would it seem to you like the world ended? Yes! Your world would have ended." David B. Curtis
Bishop Jerry Hayes Shawn Grandstaff, thank you so very much for the post. This is a great lesson in biblical hermeneutics. The problem our brothers are having is in their attempt to interpret apocalyptic literature in the same manner as one would interpret the gospels or the epistles. But perhaps this thread will be an education for them - and us.
Shawn Grandstaff "Rule #1: The analogy of faith means that scripture interprets scripture. This means that when we want to arrive at an eschatological conclusion we are to use the clear and easily understood passages of scripture to help us understand the less clear. We don't build our eschatology using the veiled or difficult to understand prophecies and then shove the obvious scriptures into that paradigm. The analogy of faith is a safeguard that should help us from reading in to the scriptures something that is not there. If one scripture seems to contradict another, then we must turn to what is easily understood, and then continue digging until we have reconciled the apparent contradiction or difficult understanding. God is not the author of confusion, and I believe his word is adequately clear to show us the answers.

Rule #2: The second rule of hermeneutics is audience relevance. This means that whatever a passage meant, or whatever words spoken in scripture meant, it meant or had direct application to the original intended audience. If we disengage the original audience from the scriptures then we can make any passage mean whatever we want, or make them apply to whomever we want. Whenever we read the scriptures we must ask ourselves, "Who is this person talking or writing directly to?" We must remember that the Bible is nothing more than a collection of personal letters and history books written by real people, to real people, in real time, and with real time contexts. For instance, in the book of Philippians the Apostle Paul wrote the following

(Philippians 2:19) 19 But I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, so that I also may be encouraged when I learn of your condition.

Does this verse teach us that we are supposed to be still waiting on Timothy today so that he can take word back to Paul on how we're doing? No. Why? Because we correctly understand audience relevance, and that this was a personal letter from Paul to a real church in Philippi in 62AD about an event (sending Timothy) that was imminent to them, not to us. We correctly understand the time and place context. The Philippians are the intended audience of this book. All time statements in the Bible must be viewed through this same lens of audience relevance. The books of the Bible are not mystical letters written nebulously to Christians throughout eternity whereby all time statements are free to be extracted and applied to whatever generation we wish. No, each book was directed to a specific audience, and again, scripture is more than adequate to show us who that audience was." David Showalter
Shawn Grandstaff Let's look at one other Old Testament use of this language:

Nahum 1 (NKJV) The burden against Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite. 2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it. 

The subject of this judgement is Nineveh, not the physical world. This is the way God describes the fall of a nation. If this language describes the judgement of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe? It is only because we do not understand how the Bible uses this apocalyptic language. If the destruction of heaven and earth were to be taken literally in all of the Old Testament passages, it would mean that heaven and earth were destroyed a bunch of times. This language is clearly not literal but figurative and apocalyptic.

The passing away of heaven and earth is another way to speak of the end of the Old Covenant. To prove this from the Scripture, look with me at:

Hebrews 1:10-12 (NKJV) And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." 

These verses are a word for word quotation from Psalm 102. If all we had was the prophecy of David in Psalms 102, we might think that this is referring to the physical earth. But, the New Testament gives us insight and illumination to the Old Testament.

How is the world or the heavens and earth of old going to perish? David said, in Psalm 102:26, "They shall grow old like a garment," and then they would be "changed." Is it just a coincidence that the Bible speaks of the passing away of the old covenant using the same language?

Hebrews 8:13 (NKJV) In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. 

The same Greek word palaioo which means: "to make worn out, or declare obsolete" is used in Hebrews 1:11 of the heavens and earth and 8:13 of the Old Covenant. The writer of Hebrews teaches us that the "Old Covenant" and the "Heavens and earth" are synonymous.

John Brown said, " 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)

Shawn Grandstaff Hey Mike Pierson, I hope you're well. To answer your questions we already know that according to Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

That implies when we are in faith we do please Him. And Jesus said the new law is love, which is the fulfillment of all the law, so when we walk in it towards others that pleases God as well. We don't need a scripture saying that walking in love pleases Him when we are obeying His command. 

As far as God responding to faith Jesus said many times, that your faith has made you whole. God healed them since they believed. 

In regards to sanctification Hebrews 10:10 says, "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." We are in Christ and I believe sanctification comes by renewing our mind because our thoughts lead our lives. 

Romans 12 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Renewing our mind to who we are in Christ will change our life.
Bishop Jerry Hayes Shawn Grandstaff, truth has boundaries, error has none. .

While I can walk with you most of the way down this path, there comes a point at which I must not walk any further. Judaio/Christian thought is linear. It has a beginning and it has an ending. I am not prepared to say the new heaven and the new earth is now in existence. I believe that is going out of bounds with truth.

Truth has boundaries, error has none.

It seems to me, to continue down your road one would arrive at the present world being the eternal state of the believer, that this is the New heaven and the New earth - heaven. Then rapture and resurrection are past, or at least not physical.
Shawn Grandstaff I'm just sharing some thoughts to stir our minds to think outside a little. It is very interesting to see what others think and why.
Bishop Jerry Hayes Yes, you are correct. Peace to you my friend.
Shawn Grandstaff Are you a partial preterist? I'm stuck between preterist and Historicists. I think futurism is a big pill to swallow for me.
Bishop Jerry Hayes I feel safe as a Historicist. LOL. I do not like being partial anything. LOL.
Shawn Grandstaff lol I hear you. They both make good arguments at least make you think.
Don N Norma Reed You both Jerry and Shawn still haven't come close to answering a number of my question. Is all one has to do is look at what is going on now. A one world government is forming, many are turning from the truth and giving heed to fables, Many are claiming they are anointed and are deceiving many as Jesus said would happen in Matthew 24 etc. 2Timothy 3:all (remember when the last days started at Pentecost so don't try to say chapter 3 was directed at Timothy and his generation only). As far as the earth just growing old as ones interpretation of Hebrew 1:11-12 says you had better bring other scriptures to light such as Revelation 16-22. 2Peter 3:10 etc. Is the kingdom of God literally on Earth right now? Or is it as Jesus said "within you"(Luke 17:20-25 which leads into the Lord describing his coming)

What I am asking you both is where are we right now in your thinking, are we in the millennium? Has the sun become darkened and the moon stopped giving her light and the stars already fallen from heaven ? Please don't try to say that it is metaphorical because there are too many scriptures that refute that notion. Do you not really see what is going on today in the world that Jesus Paul Pater and John wrote about? Do you really honestly believe that as Jesus said "then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." is passed and took place in 70 AD which would be a grave error to think that. Are you saying we are living in a time when Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron?, because if that were true he is doing a bad job. I read all your explanations and they sound nice but have many flaws in them and they answer little to no questions.

One last thing, as Christians what are we to be doing? Are we to be taking over the world and its systems for Jesus and being the head and not the tail. Are we to conquer this world for Jesus and present it to him at his coming? How many comings of the Lord are there in your estimation...I see 2 and one was fulfilled when he died for our sins (Hebrews 9:28) and the second coming is soon. I am almost hearing CI Scofield in some of your responses, you know this pertains to the Jews and that pertains to the gentiles. There are too many loose ends in your reasoning.
Shawn Grandstaff I have to disagree the left behind serious comes into play big time and has effected foreign policy. I am not into the 7 mountains at all (very far from it) and I'm very familiar with it. I am in total agreement with you about "declaring repentance and remission of sin, preaching the gospel with signs and wonders following (not chasing signs and wonders as many are doing in this wicked generation) then you will see great persecution on the Church, many martyrs and imprisonments."

I believe that is going to happen and we will see it in our lifetime. I actually wrote a book about it and how the church in America is sleep walking.
Mike Pierson Jerry, I stand corrected, you is in singular form, though the usage as it refers to a singular group is also valid.
Bishop Jerry Hayes First, Don, the questions I have answered you have not responded to or ignored, so why should I answer any more of them?
Shawn Grandstaff Hey Don that was just for the quote, the freethinkers picture. I was just saying you should look into Historism and preterist to check it out. It doesn't hurt and you may or may not see something different that's all. It's very difficult discussing it online line in writing without being in front of the Bible together. It's very easy to misunderstand where we are coming from or how to put it. End times is one of those subjects that when looked at deeply can go many ways. I've studied in depth all three views and still wrestle between two of them.
Bishop Jerry Hayes Mike Pierson, you started well and I had hope for you, then in mid sentence you tried to support your error. If you will stand corrected, then stand corrected. Do not try to take it back.

Now it is not a plural "you", it is single "you" that references one group. LOL. Hell will freeze over before you could substantiate that!

Actually, the 'group" was, indeed, referenced in Mt18:18 "Truly, I say to you..." Gk, "amēn legō humin, ..."

Be a Christian man, show integrity, and just stand corrected.
Shawn Grandstaff "For any of us to be fully conscious intellectually we should not only be able to detect the world views of others but be aware of our own--why it is ours and why in light of so many options we think it is true." James Sire
Bishop Jerry Hayes Don N Norma Reed, before we part ways on this thread I do want to respond to your introduction of the Parable of the Good Seed and the Tares:

Matthew and 13:24-30.He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat spring up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. And the slaves of the land owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘an enemy hath done this!’ And the slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But He said, ‘No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” NASB

Next Jesus interprets the parable:
Matthew 13:37-43.And He answered and said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; The enemy who showed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels.”
Therefore, just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, “and will cast them into the furnace of fire;” in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. “Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” NASB

Bishop Jerry Hayes This parable of the Good Seed And Tares is given in verses 24-30 and explained by Jesus in versus 37-43. According to Jesus: 

1. The sower (who is also the owner of the field) is the “Son of Man” (see verse 37), namely, Jesus; 

2. The field is the world (that verse 44 says is purchased by Jesus) (see verse 38); 

3. the “good seed” are the children of the Kingdom (verse 38); 

4. The tares are the children of the wicked one, namely, Satan (verse 38); 

5. The enemy is the Devil (verse 39); 

6. The reapers are the angels (verse 39); 

7. The fire is hellfire (verse 42); 

8. The barn is the eternal abode of the children of the 
Kingdom (verse 43); 

9. The servants are the New Testament ministry, 

  1. And the world (field) is the Kingdom (verse 41).
  2. Bishop Jerry Hayes The part that is most important for us is the “harvest” of the tares and of wheat. In verse 30 Jesus says: “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them into bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A point that is inescapable is the thing Jesus said would be done first. First, the tares (children of the wicked one - verse 38) are to be gathered from the field (the world - verse 38). In verse 41 is Jesus’ commentary on verse 30; Jesus explains: “the Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;” then Jesus continues to say, “and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Bishop Jerry Hayes There is NO rapture spoken of by Christ in this passage. Instead of a rapture there is a promised taking away of the wicked out of the kingdom—which is identified as the “world.” While this does not agree with the futuristic view of the end time (Dispensationalism), yet it is in perfect agreement with all Jesus ever taught about the consummation of His kingdom. See, for example, His teaching in Matthew chapter 24 verses 37-42: here Jesus speaks of the “coming of the Son of Man” in the same terms. There are those that are taken in judgment and those left behind. In spite of the millions of dollars Tim LaHaye made on his books by the title “Left Behind”: in the teaching of Jesus those left behind are the “children of the Kingdom” (Matthew 13:38) who will “shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father” after the “children of the wicked one” are “taken.”

Don N Norma Reed I am starting to see clearly Jerry where we disagree. Your statement "The “woman” in this parable is a type of the Church and the “meal” represents the world. Thus, we see the three measures of meal as the three elements of society: namely, the elements represented in the areas of politics, religion, and education. Into these three sections of society the Gospel of the Kingdom is to be “hidden” (worked into) until the whole of society becomes leaven (the Kingdom of God). The imagery of this parable is very clear: as yeast works its way through the dough, so will the Gospel work its way through society until the whole of society (the world) becomes the kingdom of the Messiah. Thus, we see the gradual working of the Gospel of the Kingdom upon society (in all three spheres) until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ (see verse 43 and compare to Revelation 11:15)." is almost exactly what those of the Kingdom Now camp embrace but instead they us the 7 mountain mandate while you see three elements of society.

So the Church , if I am understanding correctly will eventually take over the world and then the Kingdoms of the world will become the Kingdoms of our God (Nar says we will take over the worlds system and present it to Jesus at his return).

If that is all true then there will be no tribulation, no wrath of God being poured out based on an interpretation of the historicist view from Matthew 13. We can then throw out Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Luke 17, The book of Revelation and the OT prophets concerning the wrath that will poured out in the last days.

Jerry I must say I do not buy it, there are too many loose ends.

It seems to me and I may be wrong that your much learning has caused you not to be able to see the forest for the trees.

I believe we all need to admit including myself that we don't have all the answers and must continue to give diligence in prayer and in the studying of Gods word and to declare his righteousness to our generation while disciplining our young and those who come to Christ . We need to be sober and be watching to prayer. As Philippians 4:5 puts it to let our moderation (gentleness, forbearance) be known to all men, The Lord is at hand.

God bless you all and Look up for our redemption does draw near and our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.

Romans 13:11-14 

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 
The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 
Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
Mike Pierson Hi, Shawn, It is impossible to please God without faith but that doesn't mean that that is all that it takes to please God.
Don N Norma Reed I still am puzzled Jerry by the word Apostolic that you use. NAR stands for the New Apostolic Reformation. NAR believes God is raising up new Apostles and Prophets who will speak "new things" show many signs and wonders and will bring judgment on this earth as the army of Joel and will subdue Kings and Kingdoms all in Jesus name as Christ (his Church) on this earth. Do you hold to this thinking or do you hold to a similar thinking?

Bishop Jerry Hayes I know near nothing about NAR. I am 62 years of age, I am 3rd generation Apostolic (my grand mother converted to the Apostolic movement from the Missionary Baptist Church behind a miracle that brought her back from the brink of death while in her 30s). For what I understand they (NAR) are just a repackaging of the Later Rain of the 50's and 60's. The Apostolic Church in America is Oneness Pentecostal and has never been part of, or a supporter of, the Charismatic movement; in fact has opposed it on all fronts.

I think I have stated my understanding in the many posts in this thread.

As a historicist some of the things I understand are the following:
1. The apocalyptic Scripture (which includes Revelation) covers the scope of human history up to and including the judgement; 
2. Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the generation of Christ and His apostles;
3. The Kingdom of the Messiah was born on the Day of Pentecost AD 30; and came of age by AD70.
4. The Church is the Israel of God;
5. The Church wins against the AntiChrist and establishes righteousness throughout the earth;
6. The 1000 years is a symbolic number that represents the time God uses to redeem the earth;
7. Satan is bound during this 1000 yrs so he can not deceive the nations, leaving the nations open to evangelization;
8. At the end of the 1000 yrs Satan will be loosed to make war on the saints one last time;
9. There will be a literal resurrection after the 1000 yrs is finished;
10. The resurrection will be a general resurrection of both the wicked and righteous dead;
11. At the time of the resurrection, but just moments after there will be what is called the rapture of the living saints, when they are changed into spirit bodies;
12. The present earth will be renovated by fire and a perfect age will be established upon the cleansed earth.
Christopher Eric Bernard PREACH IT BISHOP!!!!!
Bishop Jerry Hayes I am trying.
Mike Pierson Why do you believe Matthew 24 only pertains to that generation?
Bishop Jerry Hayes Mike Pierson, because Jesus said it did. Notice His words: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. (v34.)
Don N Norma Reed Ok Jerry thank you for that assurance that you are not of NAR yet there are some similarity's to what NAR believes. I however disagree with with you and what the apostolic church believes concerning the consummation of all things. I not only see it as erroneous but dangerous for those who hold to it. The reason why is because when Anti-Christ does come, those who hold to your view will see him as the coming Lord Jesus Christ. One conclusion that I have made is that historicism is another form of preterism. That view I find scripturally hard to believe. The futuristic view si surely more Biblical. Well anyway it was a good debate and there were things you said that I will look into that I am not sure of but there were other things that were clearly error. Nevertheless I will not be able to convince you nor you me about what is coming, time will tell.

God bless you and continue to serve the Lord as I believe you do.
Bishop Jerry Hayes The Lord bless and keep you, Don, in His everlasting grace, is my prayer for you. 

May the God of all Light illumine all within us that is darkness.
Mike Pierson So Jerry, in your view "Psalm 24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob." this applies only to the generation of the Psalmist?
Mike Pierson Proverbs 30:12 There is A GENERATION that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness."

Proverbs 30:11 
There is A GENERATION that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
Do these verses apply to only one generation?
Bishop Jerry Hayes The Psalmist writes that concerning his generation, yes; hopefully others is other generations have been able to say the same.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Mike, one would need to determine the way the word "generation" is being used by the author.
The manner in which Jesus used the word is the context that determines the meaning. He was referencing those people alive on the earth at the same time as Himself.

You asked me why I held the understanding I did, and I told you. If you would like I could expound further:

Bishop Jerry Hayes Then Jesus said: “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled” (see verses 33-34).
The “signs” of the Times as spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24 are said to take place within a particular window. Jesus said, “This generation shall not pass, til all these things be fulfilled.” This statement has plagued Futurist from the very first. What did Christ mean? Is it possible he meant what he said;

Bishop Jerry Hayes The best interpretation of “generation,” as used by Jesus in Matthew 24:34 is to understand Him in the most common sense of the term. Always, when interpreting any written material (especially Holy Scripture) the first consideration must go to the most common usage of words or phrases. In this way the most common understanding of a word or phrase is the most probable meaning, unless the context of the passage indicates a special interpretation is required. There is no such indicators in the words of Jesus from His Olivet Discourse; the opposite is true.
The discourse of chapters 24 and 25 is but a continuation of the discourse from chapter 23. That is to say: The dialogue between Jesus and His disciples in Matthew 24:1-3 was a result of the teachings of Jesus from chapter 23. It was in chapter 23 that Christ spoke of judgment coming upon His generation (see 23:33, 36-38). By Matthew 24:34 the subject had not changed. Jesus was still speaking of His generation. He has kept His contemporaries in view. Joseph Henry Thayer says that “genea” (generation) of Matthew 24:34 means: “the whole multitude of men living at the same time” as Christ.

Bishop Jerry Hayes There is some debate as to just how many years a generation covers. Some suggest 40 years, others 70 years, and still others 100 years (see Genesis 15:1679). At any rate, the meaning of Jesus is clear that the judgment of which He spoke (in chapters 23 and 24) was immanent within his generation. Within 40 years of this prophecy Jerusalem was captured by the Romans and the temple was completely destroyed effectively ending Jewish temple worship; within 100 years the Romans had so depopulated the land of Jews that no Jew was allowed in all of Judea on penalty of death.

Bishop Jerry Hayes In determining just how Jesus is using the term “generation,” in Matthew 24:34, one must discover how He was accustomed to using the word. A listing follows of all the places Jesus employed “genea” (generation):Matthew 11:16; 12:34, 39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:33; 23:36; *24:34. Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30. Luke 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:18; 17:25; 21:32. One will notice that all the above references are from the synoptic Gospels.80 Not once did He (Jesus) alter His application of the word from meaning the people who were His contemporaries. For any Bible teacher to give the word “genea” (generation, as it appears in Matthew 24:34) a meaning that is adverse to the way Jesus employed the word in every other place, is a blatant violation of the law of context.

Bishop Jerry Hayes The Futuristic view of Matthew 24 (and most of Revelation, for that part) has proven itself false with the passing of time. It has embarrassed the Gospel of Christ, and weaken the position of the Church in the world. We must accept that the predictions of Jesus contained in Matthew 24:4-34 were fulfilled just as He said they would be—in the first century. Then we can get on with applying ourselves to the establishing of His kingdom in the earth, instead of spending all of our energy on hoping to escape into the ether (the wide blue yonder). That day will come—for sure; but now there is work to be done. OCCUPY TILL HE COMES!

Mike Pierson unfortunately everytime I try to get involved in a discussion while at work, I get busy and can't continue. Will try to catch up later!

Mike Pierson Ok hopefully I can get this out before I get busy again,
I'm typing as fast as I can so forgive any typos...
My point is that if all that Jesus said happened already,
Jesus also said to this generation, "for I say to you, 
you shall see Me no more till you say, "Blessed is He who
comes in the name of the LORD"" But they are the one's 
who saw the Temple destroyed and then scattered. So His
coming back and the Temple being destroyed can't be the 
same event, since "this generation" was punished for their
unrepentance, He couldn't have come back because He said
He would not come back until they repent and called upon
Him "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD". So 
my question is, how can those who rejected Him call on Him
if they are unrepentant, or are dead, or scattered? A 
judgement took place, not His return.
John Accomando Bishop Jerry Hayes, I don't know whether you realize it or not, but this is a futurist group. I think you may be better served somewhere else.
Jenni Schafer-Bishop Bishop I would very much like you if you would, to make a topic which discusses exactly what is yet to be fulfilled?
Bishop Jerry Hayes This is the post that started all of your objections. I challenge you to show which of these point are untrue:

Rev.1:9 "I, John, both your brother and companion in the ... kingdom ... of Jesus Christian (Ro 8:17; 2 Tim 2:12), ..." 

1. The Gospel of Jesus was the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matthew 4:23). 

2. He taught the mysteries of the Kingdom (Matthew 13:11). 

3. He proclaimed the Kingdom to be at hand (Matthew 4:17-10:7). 

4. The coming of the Kingdom was to permeate the disciples prayers (Matthew 6:10), 

5. of whom he chose twelve – the number of government. 

6. He, as King, appointed a prime minister in the person Peter, by giving him the keys of the kingdom (Matthew 16:19). 

7. His parables spoke of one who would go away to receive the Kingdom and would return (Lk 19:11). 

8. He told the high priest that he would, himself, see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom (Matthew 16:28). 

9. The apostle Paul wrote to make the mystery plain by saying that God “has delivered us from the power of darkness, (kingdoms of the beast) and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:” (Colossians 1:13). 

10. Thus, John can, here, write of his companionship with the Saints in the Kingdom of the Messiah.

Peace to your houses,
☩ Jerry Hayes

I don't know whether you realize it or not, but this is a futurist group. I think you may be better served somewhere else.
Don N Norma Reed As I was out today the thought came to me as to when the Book of Revelation was written. After doing some research , looking at commentaries such as Clarke, Gill, Henry, and Wesley and reading some websites. I believe that the book of Revelation was written some time around 95-96 AD making the historicism (preterist) view pretty much a mute issue.

Here is an excellent link explaining why Revelation had to be written after 70 AD

When Was the Book of Revelation Written? :
When was the book of Revelation written?

Bishop Jerry Hayes Jenni Schafer-Bishop, you wrote: "I would very much like you if you would, to make a topic which discusses exactly what is yet to be fulfilled?"

The following list are some of the things yet to take place:

1. The evangelization and conversion of the world to Christ. Not every soul, of course, but the majority;

2. The loosening of Satan to re-deceive the nations;

3. The taking of the wicked out of the earth;

4. The rapture;

5. The general resurrection of the dead;

6. The Judgement;

7. The establishing of the perfect age.

Bishop Jerry Hayes Don N Norma Reed, before yo settle on your opinion for the date for the book of Revelation, please consider this article I have just posted in the Bishop's Epistle:

The Lord of all truth keep you in His grace is my prayer for you all.